MMR booster question

[cardy]

I really don?t want to get into a debate about MMR v single vaccines.

My dds both had single vaccines and are both overdue their pre-school boosters. I have ignored this for too long (mainly because it worries me) but I need to do something about it. I can?t decide whether now given all the evidence there really isn?t anything to worry about and MMR booster will be fine. Nearly all of my friend? s children have had MMR booster and they are fine.

My questions is - do any of you know anybody who?s children have had MMR booster and now have some kind of health problem that they think is linked to it.

It would also be helpful to hear from people who?s children have had MMR booster (esp. after single first vaccines) and are fine!

which is where my question from my earlier post comes into play 'I assume they need boosters throughtout their lives?? has this been researched?'

They do not need boosters throughout their lives. 90% immunisation means 9 out of 10 will be 100% immune - the reason they still give the booster to everyone is that it is simpler than testing everybody for immunity first, and then give the second shot to those who are not immune. 'Booster' is not a very good word for it I think.. afaik it is just the same as the first one, to ensure more people are covered. I guess also to give those who missed the first one for some reason or other a second chance?

Actually I am not sure that is right is it?.
Of course only 90 % get immunity . And that immunity may be 100%. But as I understand it that immunity does not consistently last forever.

I understood that very few vaccinations provide life long immunity - even if that immunity is initially full immunity. Hence the need for boosters .

And the policy of just vaccinationg every child again to mop up the 10% who didn't get immunity first time may be chaeper but remains bollocks - unless we are assuming that we will always cover the 10% the second time and that there is no reason why vaccine didn't work on that child the first time. It doesn't make sense on any level - not even if we only look at the maths

amireallythatsad. From the group of children I know that were affected negatively by the MMR any history of auto immune would worry me.
Hence DD not having it at all

Actually I am not sure why I am in the discussion. It only winds me up when people try and tell me that there are few risks given that i will be attending to my very severely affected son for the rest of my life.

No way in the world will any of my children have it. So I am ducking out.

FWIW I think most children are safe.
But a very tiny sub group are not. And as the medical profession is too busy trying to evidence it is safe rather than identifying those at risk , we will all just have to continue to trust our guts.

Good luck to all. I am sure all your children will be fine. My DS2 is a rarity.

DS1 had the MMR at 4 1/2, i chose to wait until then so he developed his own personality etc. He had it and he changed drastically. Gone was the happy little laughing smiling, sleeping, eating, polite, caring, well behaved little boy and along came the screaming, tantruming, not sleeping, unhappy, not eating, sad little boy.

DS2 is 18m and has not nor will he have the mmr. There is no way in the world i am putting another baby of mine through what my first went through.

And ds1 never had the booster either but it was too late as far as I am concerned the damage had been done.

Pag well I will join you there as my ds1 must be a rarity as well.

Hi ladies sorry to seem a bit ignorant, but when you talk about autoimmune issues would you include excema in that or are we talking more serious illnesses such as lupus and arthritis?

Pag and the Lady, I don't think you are a rarity and I'm interested in your POV's.

I've held off so far for MMR and others. Because of my gut feeling and whilst I appreciate others may or may not agree with my opinion, it is my opinion with only the best interests of my DD at heart.

So please tell me PAG the other children you talk of affected by autism etc, did their parents have auto-immune problems or otherwise?

The LadyEvenstar, how is your DS now? I was thinking of holding off until my DD was older but my gut feeling is still telling me to hold off for a while yet.

And for others whilst you may think that I am being blase, I have spent the past three years researching and finding out as much info as possible, from Doctors etc. I've read Richard Halvorsens book, Dr Vera Shreibers information, Trevor Gunn, etc etc and I am still weighing it up. Not an easy decision and it's not an easy choice whatever you do. Please talk to me Pag and Lady and others who have been affected, or others who haven't. I am genuinely interested and again sorry for hijacking this thread...

Sorry, another hijack. Although I am not considering MMR (will do singles again), I am concerned about the pre-school booster Infanrix IPV HIB (diptheria etc).

This vaccine is being given to a certain range of pre-school children who missed the hib catch-up at 12 months. The patient information leaflet states do not give to children over 3 years of age, which is exactly when this vaccine is being given. My child is over 4 and has been offered this vaccine, which I am trying to research further, before giving it.

Has anyone's child been given this vaccine over the age of 3, and were there any reactions? Of course I want my child protected, but I am wary of any possible risks involved in this age group.

Amire, I am going to be 100000% honest with you. DS1 is now 10yrs old and STILL we have major behavioural problems. Still a battle at bedtime, mealtime etc. I have taken him to drs, child psychologists, counsellors, mediation etc and they all came to the same answer they cannot find aanything wrong with him YET all also agree that he has behavioural issues. One Dr asked if i coul pinpoint when hos behaviour changed and I told him honestly. He replied to me "off the record" that he had as a doctor refused to allow his children to have the mmr as he did not trust it.

DS2 is now 18m and there is nothing in the world that would make allow him to have it.

amireallythatsad

hi - yes. Most ofthe parents I know cite some kind of aut immune issue. Children having large numbers of anti-biotics were frequently mentioned as were excema and asthma
My personal thing was that i had auto immune issues after DS1 with just mild but recurrent illnesses. I then had a kidney infection requiring iv anti-biotics. DS2 then added his own little mayhem by having chicekn pox a few months before the jab.
I am also an anti-d mum and have gazzilions of jabs before and after DS1 so I think i was as packed full of mercury as a person can be ( which of course also screws with your immune system)

Interestingly vitamins and pro-biotics and removing foods have helped DS2. He still has freaky hyper immunity though and is almost never ill.

my 2 DDs are both due their MMR booster (age 3.6 and 5.2)
i was planning on doing them both during the easter hols, am in SW London and there are measles around.
neither had any problems after 1st MMR.
DD1 has an egg allergy (personally i think she has grown out of it but have to wait until she is 5 to be tested again). She does have digestive issues (constipation) - i hadn't realised this was linked to MMR issues. Can you tell me more?

Also if you know the name of a clinic which tests for the immunity I'd be very grateful.

Thanks.

Pag oddly enough AFTER having the MMR ds1 then suffered ear infection after ear infection leading to many anti biotics, on top of that within 3 months he was diagnosed with reflax anoxic seizures. Which I discovered a few months ago was linked to the jabs they have at 1yr.

amidaiwish,
check this website out

web.mac.com/richardhalvorsen1/iWeb/Dr%20Halvorsen/Vaccines.html

I believe that Dr Halvorsen carries out blood tests at his clinic in London - might be of help to you. In addition, I've read that some vaccinations are made using egg - but apparently very very few children who have an allergy to egg are affected. So I'd check with your doctor first just to make sure.

Thanks Pag and Lady. Made me not feel so ashamed of my decision. You know the gut feeling - I have it. I have suspected auto-immune issues (I'm ongoing tests and seeing rheumatologists), DD has had antibiotics, and I worry about her health....can't put my finger on exactly why I won't do it, but I cant. Which is why I have held off so far. I know it's not everyones ideal, but I don't want to risk it.

Its interesting what things (i.e. diet) can affect a child's behaviour, isn't it. It makes the whole holistic thing seem not that "quacky" afterall.

Lady I am so sorry you are experiencing problems still with your DS. Must be so stressful for you.

Thanks for your honesty - such a tough decision.

amidaiwish - also I'm not sure if the MMR uses egg - so may be worth some research.

Cardy - your op was correct, all the evidence (and there is a lot of it!) shows that there is nothing to worry about with MMR/booster.

You ask if we know anyone whose dc have had booster and now have some kind of health problem. My answer; no, but I do know someone whose baby died from contracting measles from her older dd's friend from school. (The baby was too young for the jabs. The friend had had single jabs but not the booster. She recovered fine from measles - the baby didn't make it.)

You also ask to hear from people whose children have had booster and are fine - all mine are, and everyone I know.

I applaud you for going to the trouble and expense of having the single jabs. Being not a scientist and given all the scaremongering 6 years ago, I probably would have done that myself. But DH was, at the time, a bioinformatician, and he, after looking into "evidence" against MMR (turned out there was none!) concluded that the MMR was as safe as single jabs, and either was a lot safer then nothing. I am so glad I trusted his reading of the data, rather than what the newspapers were spouting!

Please seriously consider having some form of measles booster - or at least test they are already covered. And base your decision NOT on what I've just written about my experience, and NOT on what other mums have written about their experience, but on the data - there is so much now, and so easily accessible.

I know a specialist in immunisation. He has told us that there is no way he would give his children MMR in particular but also many other vaccinations such as tentanus. There is very little risk to a child who contracts diseases such as rubella and mumps but vaccinations can cause a fever which is what confuses the brain and can cause autism. In particular he considers that boosters are high risk as a result of the fever risk and have not been shown to have any benefit. He has written a paper on the topic but is waiting to publish due to the litigation against the doctor who published previously (which is apparently still going on).

Both DSs have had the MMR. DS2 has not yet had the booster and will not now be having it. I just wouldn't take the risk having heard what this doctor has to say.

I know most GPs and nurses will say that the vaccinations are vital but this guy's view is that they just don't know enough about the area.

My GP told me that the MMR vaccine used to be cultured in egg but is no longer. However he sent me to the hospital for DD2 to have her MMR. I delayed until she was almost 3 and made sure she had no sign of a cold etc. She was fine.

thanks for the link amireallythatsad

fishnet - vaccinations have been going on for a long time, and have saved millions of lives, so I am shocked to hear of an "expert in immunology" disagreeing with vaccines. If he has uncovered evidence (unlike the hundreds of other university scientists and medical teams working on the subject) then I don't understand why he isn't prepared to publish his paper; until he does have it peer reviewed it just is not evidence. Wakefield made a myriad of errors (here is a link to the full story briandeer.com/mmr-lancet.htm) - which doesn't stop others publishing if they haven't made the same mistakes.

As my friends experience with losing a baby to measles complications becomes more common in this country (which sadly the stats predict it will), this debate will hopefully move on.

I'm sorry but there isn't half some nonsense now being stated in this thread.

None of the three vaccines in MMR have been anywhere near eggs. People who assert otherwise really need to look up the freely available evidence. Ovalbumin (an egg protein) is found in some batches of MMR as a by-product of the cell culture that the virus is grown in, but it's in quantities about 1000 times less than has been shown to elicit allergic responses in clinical trials.

Who is this self-proclaimed "expert" in immunisations that says fever causes autism? Even Andy Wakefield would refute that ridiculous notion.

To say mumps infection causes very little risk to children completely ignores the solid evidence that it was the single most frequent cause of viral meningitis in children; a substantial proportion of whom developed permanent deafness afterwards.

Muskebba I would just like to clarify something:-

If you read my thread you may find that I am saying that it is very very very rare children have a reaction to egg and may be worth doing some research (like I did and read a GP site, who said best to clear with your doctor first), which is what amidaiwish has done and has been all cleared by her doctor. (And why her doctor sent her DD to hospital to have the jab, I presume, just to make sure?????)For the record, I do have a cousin who's child had the MMR, has egg allergies and had a reaction after having it.....so presumably some children can be affected?

Wading into the conversation with "isn't half some nonsense now being stated in this thread" is stating that you ARE the only opinion on this matter. MNetters are allowed to express how they feel but by the tone of your thread you make it sound like you know the complete and definitive answer to this all. Do you? If so please put my mind at rest. Could you vouch that 100% of children will be safe and not be affected? This is why parents take time to decide what is best for their child.

So any unbiased opinions would be great. I need help in deciding so if you can put my mind at rest then please let me know.

Just out of interest muskeeba, are you a doctor? I would like to chat to you in all seriousness about this if you are? Maybe you could put my mind at ease, and perhaps try to put out of my mind the two cases personally of people whom I know who swear their children were affected by the MMR?

And I have no doubt that measles and mumps can cause serious problems. Can you tell me the figures in how many children who contracted mumps then contracted meningitis, then were left deaf as a result? Could you show me where you got this from because I would like to find out for myself? (I am not accusing, I am interested )

p.s. I have just re-read my threads and they sound quite strong. Did not mean it like that but have had a very sleepless night and ill.

I just mean I want you to show me your evidence.

Musukebba - let me confirm - the doctor said "the MMR is no longer cultured in egg, BUT, because DD2 has a confirmed allergy to egg she must have the first MMR in hospital where they can monitor her closely afterwards." It wasn't me who wanted to spend half a day in hospital for a vaccination that takes 20 mins in the local surgery. The GP was insistent. Obviously there is a higher risk of a reaction.

Hi sorry for not responding until now but had a rather distracting day...

@amireallythatsad: I must apologise; especially if it caused you a sleepless night. It was rather an insensitive post that I made and should not have implied criticism of everyone. To be honest it was really the content of the post from fishnet that tipped the balance, with the stuff about some 'expert' stating that fever causes autism, that there is little risk to children from mumps, and implying that even tetanus vaccination should be avoided. This is quite dangerous misinformation that I felt needed challenging; but my mistake was to imply everyone's views were also nonsense, and I certainly didn't mean it to be like that. I hope you, and the others mistakenly included, could accept my apology.

I do appreciate that allergies to things like egg and other proteins are of genuine concern to parents, and in my job as a clinical virologist we deal with these type of questions quite a bit. Sometimes we have to make assessments of whether to vaccinate children with much more serious conditions, such as epilepsy and severe neurological disease, but yet don't have the defined contraindications for MMR. What helps make the decision to advise first or second vaccinations is knowing that the effects of the wild-type diseases on these children would be so much more severe and probably life-threatening to someone with a genuine immunodeficiency.

By and large we go by the information and recommendations in the 'Green Book'; not just with a blind following as if it's some kind of Old Testament or written in stone, but because it is built on a huge amount of peer-reviewed science and clinical observation. The 2006 version is freely available in individual chapter form from the Dept of Health website:

www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publichealth/Healthprotection/Immunisation/Greenbook/DH_4097254

If you download chapter 23 on mumps, the risks associated with complications are summarised there in the first couple of pages (meningitis 15% i.e 1 in 6 children), orchitis 25% (1 in 4), and deafness between 1 in 3400 or 20,000 depending which study you take. The odds of developing deafness would be considerably higher in a child who had meningitis. My own personal experience is that two doctors I have worked with in the last ten years became deaf on one side after having mumps as children.

Once again, sorry to you for the uneccessarily harsh post and I'm more than happy to try and explain things if it will help.