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5 month old with bad reflux... now dark green poo with bright red blood?

42 replies

eandz · 08/02/2009 23:42

my son has had really bad reflux for the past few weeks. he is 22 weeks old. we have been in and out of the hospital for the reflux, he's been given renitidine, domperidone, gaviscon and we've been using pregestimil and nutramigen interchangeably. his poo has been going from butter yellow (where it actually smells like butter popcorn) to dark green/blackish poo and today there has been bright red streaks in the stool itself, not from his anus or skin. we looked through another diaper his dad had changed and its dark green (the color of over boiled spinach) but when you mash it with a wipe there is a little bit of red residue as well.

dosage: .4ml of renitidine 3x a day
.5 domperidome 3x a day
two satchets of infant gaviscon per 9 ounce bottle usually 4 bottles a day.

tried colief, infacol, gripe water--

this past week all our appointments have been canceled with specialists because of the weather and because no one in london seems to be able to cope with snow. the week before i did take him to a private doctor who sent us back to st marys

we have an amby nest, i wear him in the sling at all times. he won't be put down, and the rare occasions he will be put down he is always on an incline. he did decrease his feeds over two weeks ago, but has gone back onto feeding to the normal range (36 ounces daily) used to drink 42 ounces but it was thinner formula.

he still is vomiting exorcist style, but he did stop for a few days, but it's started up again in the last 72 hours.

i've started two threads about my sons reflux, at one point we thought it was pyloric stenosis, but nothing not even severe reflux has been diagnosed. i know i'll end up in the a&e at some point, but i need to calm down first.

is there anyone else who has had this? please tell me it's more common than i think.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
eandz · 08/02/2009 23:44

please help us. i really am quite worried.

OP posts:
eandz · 08/02/2009 23:48

please, i'm waiting to hear back from the out of hours gp. would i even benefit from taking him back to the a&e when they don't do anything except make me feed him more of the same stuff?

also, i forgot to add that they said he has but won't test him for cow milk protein intolerance.

i'm not sure why they won't test him for it.

OP posts:
bonnyweejeaniemccoll · 08/02/2009 23:56

So sorry to read this eandz and wish I could help - just wanted to bump for you and hope someone with some experience of this will be along soon. I hope your DS is better soon, you must be so worried about him x

eandz · 08/02/2009 23:59

he's also vomiting left and right. the vomiting is usual for him, but the amount is getting larger and larger.

the out of ours gp has told me to come in tomorrow. i should go in tonight, right? i think i should go in tonight.

OP posts:
eandz · 09/02/2009 00:01

i'm writing constant in here to bump. bumping so it stays active and someone with advice might see it.

OP posts:
abbierhodes · 09/02/2009 00:06

No advice, sorry, but bumping for you x x

BoysAreLikeDogs · 09/02/2009 00:06

Please get to hospital

No one here has the kind of skills needed to help a sick baby

You are obviously very worried so why hang about?

Of course it means turfing out at night but a small price to pay for peace of mind

Now go

(remember to take spare jammies/babygrows, bibs and nappies, milk and all medicines, your pram as well as the car seat)

Good luck

peachface · 09/02/2009 00:10

Take him to out of hours tonight if you're really frantic. TBH think you're best waiting for the out of hours doc to advise as they will have the details of your son and anyone posting on here about experience might make you more worried or not have the same issue and it might make things seem a lot worse IYKWIM. I'm not trying to sound like I'm fobbing you off but it sounds very unpleasant so best to have medical opinion on this asap esp as you've got such specific medication already being prescribed.

eandz · 09/02/2009 00:11

ok. but please if anyone has any advice or has had this happen please please please post. i'll check whenever i do get back.

thank you everyone.

OP posts:
peachface · 09/02/2009 00:11

sorry, when I said "waiting" for the out of hours doc, I meant waiting til you're in the out of hour place tonight (not tomorrow as you'd mentioned)rather than asking on here for advice. hope all ok.

SOLOveMeTenderLoveMeDo · 09/02/2009 00:18

Hi, can I ask you if your lo is on solids or just milk and if bf or ff?

SOLOveMeTenderLoveMeDo · 09/02/2009 00:23

The reason I ask is that my Dd screamed 24/7 from 3 days old until 6 1/2 months. Her poo was the colour green you describe and it was months before I realised that she was pooing hard, sand like grains. I had lots of samples sent off, but they always came back as insufficient sample provided and I got more and more frustrated because I felt that no one was listening and to me once I'd realised the grain/sand like poo must've been the reason for her constant screaming.
Once she was on solids, it all stopped and I never did get any answers or to the bottom ofthe whole thing.

Dd was exclusively bf and I weaned her to solids at 6 months.

ThumbLoveWitch · 09/02/2009 00:25

why in hell won't they test him for CMPI? Even if they won't test him, AFTER you have taken him to see someone about the blood (never a good sign, let's face it), switch him to one of those special formulae that is ultra-hydrolysed to get around the CMPI issue.

In the meantime,if you haven't already done so, phone NHS direct - if they can't help, then if your DS is sleeping quietly, leave it until the morning and get an emergency appt or go to A&E - if he is not sleeping and is in any sort of pain, go now.

You are not getting the best help so far, it seems. am on your behalf.

blinks · 09/02/2009 00:33

both my babies had green poo on and off at different points but were breastfed so i don't know how different it is if he's formula fed.

the blood, if red is likely from the colon or rectum so most likely a tear/fissure. def needs investigation though...

the vomiting sounds chronic and needs attention and overall my instincts would be that he may be allergic to the formula, poss lactose intolerant.

maybe try a soya based formula.

SOLOveMeTenderLoveMeDo · 09/02/2009 01:05

I think what the HV told me before I noticed the grains was that green poo is a sign of a hungry baby(?)think I remember that right.
My Dd was not hungry though. She was an on demand feeder and fed plenty.

CantSleepWontSleep · 09/02/2009 07:03

TLW - the nutramigen which the OP mentions is a hypoallergenic formula.
They prob won't test for an intolerance because there isn't a reliable test, and why bother if they already know he is intolerant and are treating him as such.

Is pregestimil a hypoallergenic formula too eandz? It's one I've not come across before.

Am hoping that you have been to hospital now. How did you get on?

Jenbot · 09/02/2009 14:15

eandz how worrying
hope things get better today. did you go to the out of hours GP last night?

DebiTheScot · 09/02/2009 15:40

how are things eandz? I hope the docs are taking you seriously now and they can make him better.

zonedout · 09/02/2009 15:43

eandz, so sorry you are going through this. i am by no means a medical expert (and i guess you will have been seen by a paed by now anyway) but i just felt compelled to write as your ds sounds identical to my ds1 at that age. he had terrible reflux and was diagnosed with multiple food intolerances (although was never actually tested for these and i don't believe he actually ever was intolerant but that is for another time...) like your ds he would not be put down, i wore him in a sling constantly for a year. his poo also turned green (and once it did it never went back to that lovely bf yellow) and he frequently would get streaks of blood in it (very frightening). not sure if your ds is very windy but mine was and used to strain to pass his poo (but he was never constipated except for when we tried infant gaviscon) and i think it was the violent wind and straining that caused the bleeding (although the gastro paed and dietician used to also blame the intolerances .

The good news is that at around a year, all of the symptoms passed (he just had to learn how to sleep!) and he is now a very happy 3 (this week) year old who can eat everything. So the reflux does pass.

I hope you have had some answers since your original post and please remember to also go with your gut feel on this (as well as listening to the paeds of course ). With hindsight, my gut was always right with my ds1, but not always in agreement with the paed and dietican...

ninja · 09/02/2009 17:24

Hoping that you've got some help - but also bumping in case anyone else has some advice

lollipopmother · 09/02/2009 19:54

Oh God, I'm really sorry to see this thread EandZ, I really hope that you have been treated properly at the hospital today. Please keep us updated.

eandz · 09/02/2009 21:33

I did go to the out of hours gp. then i was sent to the A&E again.

they are making us wait 3 days (I DON'T KNOW WHY) for omeprazole. They still won't test him and they want us to just try Nutramigen and forget Pregestimil. They will prescribe some other formula if it doesn't work.

they told me the poo was nothing to be worried about. they made us come in today for the day to be 'observed'. collected all his stools (just one) and then sent me home about 2 hours ago. they said the blood is normal with kids with cow milk protein intolerance and with the switching around of all the formula.

i will continue on and pretend things are normal until and unless Noah starts to either become lethargic and floppy or i can tell he's in pain again. i hope neither of the two things happen.

thank you all soo very much.

OP posts:
blinks · 09/02/2009 23:38

glad it's not too serious... it's horrid to not be able to find a resolution for him though i'm sure it'll all come together soon.

ThumbLoveWitch · 09/02/2009 23:44

blimey, that's a bit haphazard for my liking, I must say! I wouldn't be over-keen to have fresh blood in stools written off as "normal", unless it is because his stools are quite hard and difficult to pass.

Still, I suppose they must have some clue what they're talking about, they just seem a bit blasé to me.

lory · 10/02/2009 06:55

go and have a look at

www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/.

omeprazole should make a BIG difference, but be aware that the right dosage has to be found, so if after a week, he is still so sick, ask fo, insist, be a pain in the a... mother to be able to try for another week a different dosage.

Green poos or any odds poos, are typical of severe reflux, and usaully are a sign of allergies.

DS2 has had severe reflux , was on lanzoprazole for months. Have you already start with solids? anything? even just a spoon of fruit/bread/... ? Reflux gets worse with solids, and you have to find not only the right food, but the right texture as well.
Blood test showed allergy to cow milk, eggs, wheat, peach.

No experience with blood, sorry, but I found on the website above:

Starship Children?s Health Clinical Guideline
Note: The electronic version of this guideline is the version currently in use. Any printed version can
not be assumed to be current. Please remember to read our disclaimer.
GASTRO-INTESTINAL BLEEDING IN CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS
Author: Dr Simon Chin Service Gastro-enterology
Editor: Dr Raewyn Gavin Date Issued: Reviewed November 2004
Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding In Children And Adolescents Page: 1 of 6
? Introduction
? Differential Diagnosis
? History
? Physical Examination
? Laboratory Tests
? Imaging Studies
? Endoscopy
? Treatment
? References
Introduction
There are many causes of gastro-intestinal bleeding in children. Some span the whole paediatric
age range, while others reflect congenital malformations and present with bleeding in early
childhood. Advances in paediatric endoscopy have allowed us to determine the cause in most
children who present with GI bleeding, provided the clinical evaluation and management are timely.

  1. Determine the severity of the bleeding
  2. Determine the site of bleeding
? Upper GI (proximal to the ligament of Treitz, the 2nd part of the duodenum) or ? Lower GI (distal to the ligament of Treitz). ? Exclude bleeding that is not gastro-intestinal e.g. epistaxis, maternal blood, dental work, haemoptysis. Substances such as iron, bismuth, beets, spinach and blueberries can mimic melaena. ? Colour of the bleeding. ? Haematemesis (vomited blood) can be either red or the colour of coffee grounds. It is most commonly associated with an upper gastro-intestinal bleed. Bright red blood suggests active bleeding which has not come into contact with the gastric acid secretions. Coffee grounds result when the gastric secretions have the chance to interact with blood. ? Melaena (black tarry stools) generally indicates significant blood loss proximal to the ileocaecal valve. The black colour results from bacterial break down of haemoglobin. ? Haematochezia (bright red blood per rectum) generally indicates a colonic site of bleeding. Occasionally this type of bleeding may originate from the small intestine as a result of a fast gut transit time.
  1. Consider other factors:
? Age is a major determinant for determining the likely cause (see Tables) ? The presence or absence of significant pain is important ? Signs of a surgical abnormality ? The presence or absence of diarrhoea. Starship Children?s Health Clinical Guideline Note: The electronic version of this guideline is the version currently in use. Any printed version can not be assumed to be current. Please remember to read our disclaimer. GASTRO-INTESTINAL BLEEDING IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS Author: Dr Simon Chin Service Gastro-enterology Editor: Dr Raewyn Gavin Date Issued: Reviewed November 2004 Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding In Children And Adolescents Page: 2 of 6 Differential Diagnosis Upper Gastro Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding. Gastritis and duodenitis occurs in all age groups. Gastric ulcer is more common in early childhood while duodenal ulcers are, in general, more common in the older age groups. Oesophageal varices should be considered if there is any evidence of chronic liver disease and this can occur from as early as a few months of life but usually from after 12 months of age. Consider a Mallory-Weiss tear in any patient with protracted vomiting. Rectal bleeding. In infants, consider anal fissures, swallowed maternal blood, necrotising enterocolitis, mid gut volvulus, intussusception, infectious diarrhoea and milk protein allergy (allergic colitis). Allergic colitis is seen in infants up to four months of age exposed to cows? milk or Soya milk protein formula. These infants are generally well and have normal slightly mucousy loose stool streaked with blood. Bleeding from juvenile polyps may occur in the first year of life but usually presents from 1 to 12 years. Nodular lymphoid hyperplasia may also cause lower GI bleeding in the first years of life. Ulcerative colitis can present in the first year. Bright red blood per rectum (with otherwise normal stool), or spots of red blood on the toilet paper implies bleeding from anal or rectal lesions. Possibilities include anal fissures, juvenile polyp or allergic proctitis. Bright red blood mixed with mucus and associated with diarrhoea, abdominal cramps and tenesmus suggests a colitis. The cause could be: Infection: Salmonella, Campylobacter, Shigella, C-difficile as well as entero-invasive E.coli and occasionally Yersinia. In patients who are immuno-compromised, consider CMV, HSV and candida as well. Pseudomembranous colitis Ulcerative colitis. Painless rectal bleeding suggests a Meckel?s diverticulum, duplication, polyp or angio dysplasia. Rarely, painless rectal bleeding may be due to a deep ulcer in the right colon or terminal ileum from Crohn?s disease. Copious amounts of red blood are seen with Meckel?s diverticulum or a colonic arteriovenous malformation. Massive G-I bleeding can be due to oesophageal varices, peptic ulcers, Meckel?s, AV malformation. Abdominal pain. If present, a surgical abnormality should be ruled out. Peritonitis could indicate a perforated ulcer, necrotising enterocolitis in an infant or a perforated viscus secondary to Crohn?s disease in an older patient. Pain accompanies the vasculitis of Henoch-Schonlein purpura and sometimes gastro-intestinal bleeding may precede the characteristic rash by several days. If there are signs of bowel obstruction, exclude intussusception. While ?redcurrent jelly? stools are a classic presentation, this sign is not always present. Starship Children?s Health Clinical Guideline Note: The electronic version of this guideline is the version currently in use. Any printed version can not be assumed to be current. Please remember to read our disclaimer. GASTRO-INTESTINAL BLEEDING IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS Author: Dr Simon Chin Service Gastro-enterology Editor: Dr Raewyn Gavin Date Issued: Reviewed November 2004 Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding In Children And Adolescents Page: 3 of 6 History Exclude chronic lung disease, renal disease, bleeding disorders or liver disease. Cystic fibrosis patients are at risk of oesophageal varices due to biliary cirrhosis, and vitamin K deficiency may be a factor secondary to fat soluble vitamin absorption. Medications including NSAIDs and prior antibiotic exposure. Overseas travel. Family medical history: peptic ulcer disease, bleeding disorders, inflammatory bowel disease, polyposis syndrome or early colon cancer. Other sick contacts may indicate an infectious cause e.g. contaminated food. Physical Examination Look for: Chronic constipation. Possible anal fissure. Rectal exam to exclude faecal retention. If bleeding is severe, look for tachycardia and orthostatic hypertension (a rise in the pulse rate by 20 beats per minute or a fall in the systolic blood pressure of more than 10mmHg indicates significant volume depletion, usually > 20%). Cutaneous haemangiomas may indicate the presence of GI mucosal haemangiomas. Pigmentation of the lips and buccal mucosa may suggest Peutz-Jeghers syndrome. Purpura on the buttocks and lower extremities are characteristic of HSP. Portal hypertension. Signs include hepatosplenomegaly, as well as other stigmata of chronic liver disease (clubbing, spider naevi, jaundice and ascites). Laboratory Tests FBC. A recent bleed may not alter the haemoglobin or haematocrit but the MCV can be low in chronic low grade bleeding. Raised eosinophils may signify an allergic colitis. ESR. An elevated ESR may indicate inflammatory bowel disease. Coagulation profile to rule out a bleeding disorder. Liver function tests if there are signs of portal hypertension or chronic liver disease. If there are loose stools, stool cultures and a C-difficile toxin assay. Renal function tests. A high urea may be a clue for haemolytic uraemic syndrome or may indicate the presence of dehydration. Starship Children?s Health Clinical Guideline Note: The electronic version of this guideline is the version currently in use. Any printed version can not be assumed to be current. Please remember to read our disclaimer. GASTRO-INTESTINAL BLEEDING IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS Author: Dr Simon Chin Service Gastro-enterology Editor: Dr Raewyn Gavin Date Issued: Reviewed November 2004 Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding In Children And Adolescents Page: 4 of 6 Imaging Studies Upper GI bleeding. Contrast studies should not be the initial study to rule out oesophagitis, gastritis or peptic ulcers because of the lack of sensitivity. Endoscopy is far more sensitive. Contrast studies may be indicated in patients with dysphagia or odynophagia. Ultrasound should be requested if there is evidence of liver disease or splenomegoly. Haemotochezia. Contrast studies should not be the initial evaluation. Flexible endoscopy is better. The exception would be suspected intussusception, where ultrasound should be requested (and if confirmed, an enema for reduction). Massive painless bleeding. A Meckel scan is the procedure of choice. False negative results have been reported because of insufficient gastric tissue mass, down stream washout of isotope, impaired blood supply or suboptimal techniques. Repeat Meckel scans may therefore be necessary to identify the type of gastric tissue. Obscure bleeding in the upper or lower GI tract. Technetium labelled RBC scans may aid localisation, but require active bleeding of > 0.5ml /min.

Strong gastritis may cause bleeding, and ime thing reflux babies have for sure is tons of acids.
Hope it helps

Endoscopy
Fibreoptic endoscopy and biopsy has increased the rate of positive diagnosis. The yield decreases
if endoscopy is delayed, so it is important that endoscopy occurs promptly. Preparation of the
patient is critically important. In emergency situations where bleeding is severe, resuscitation of the
patient is paramount. Endoscopy should not be performed hastily if the patient is unstable. For
colonoscopy, the patient requires adequate bowel preparation and this varies with the age and
compliance of the child. Urgent endoscopy does allow prompt diagnosis and the ability to perform
therapeutic interventions such as sclerotherapy.
For patients with melaena or haematemesis, upper endoscopy is usually done first. Patients with
haematochezia should at least receive a flexible sigmoidoscopy. Many would recommend
colonoscopy as the first examination, particularly if the procedure is being performed under general
anaesthetic. A significant number of polyps are found proximally, beyond the reach of rigid
sigmoidoscopes.
Treatment
If there is significant bleeding, re-establish blood volume and O2 carrying capacity (rapid infusion
of normal saline followed if appropriate by red cells)
Determine the site of blood loss
Known oesophageal varices and severe bleeding.
Octreotide infusion, starting with 1mcg/kg IV bolus followed by a continuous infusion of 1
mcg/kg/hour, increasing every eight hours if there is no reduction in the bleeding up to 4-5
mcg/kg/hour as a continuous infusion. When there is no active bleeding after 24 hours the dose
could be halved every 12 hours. Side effects of Octreotide include nausea, abdominal cramps,
diarrhoea, bradycardia and hyperglycemia which usually resolve spontaneously.
As a last resort, a Sengstaken tube. This has significant complications including aspiration and
oesophageal rupture.
Starship Children?s Health Clinical Guideline
Note: The electronic version of this guideline is the version currently in use. Any printed version can
not be assumed to be current. Please remember to read our disclaimer.
GASTRO-INTESTINAL BLEEDING IN CHILDREN AND
ADOLESCENTS
Author: Dr Simon Chin Service Gastro-enterology
Editor: Dr Raewyn Gavin Date Issued: Reviewed November 2004
Gastro-Intestinal Bleeding In Children And Adolescents Page: 5 of 6
Sclerotherapy can be successful in obliterating oesophageal varices after multiple sessions in up
92% of paediatric patients. It is used in infants.
Oesophageal band ligation has also been successful, with fewer complications compared with
sclerotherapy.
Peptic disease such as gastritis or oesophagitis.
H2 antagonists such as Ranitidine (2-4mg/kg/dose, maximum 150 mg/dose, twice a day).
Proton pump inhibitors such as Omeprazole (0.7-1.4mg/kg/dose, max 40mg, once a day) are
indicated in selected cases. A liquid preparation is available where doses do not relate to capsule
sizes.
Sucralfate (250mg q.i.d. for children