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So why, when BFing is meant to boost immunity...

42 replies

giddykipper · 23/12/2008 14:33

, has DS been ill pretty much constantly for the last few months? From chest infestion to ear infection to conjunctivitis to second ear infection. He's just a bug magnet bless him.

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Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
pantomimEDAMe · 25/12/2008 19:38

Lucy - depends on your point of view. Babies are meant to be fed human milk. Formula manufacturers are always looking for new ingredients to try to mimic the health properties of breast milk but it will never be as good. It can't be - bm is designed for that specific baby.

It's like those old ideas that in the future we'd wear bacofoil, have robots to do the housework and just eat vitamin pills instead of having to faff around preparing food. You can't actually replicate the health effects of a good, balanced diet by isolating a few key nutrients in pill form - it just doesn't work. Same applies to formula - it will never replace bm.

Formula is good enough. But if you take the point of view that bm is normal, then you might say formula does damage the immune system - because it just doesn't do the same job that bm would.

FWIW ds was mixed fed - bf + one bottle of formula a day. Got me through those nightmare early days of cracked nipples and mastitis so better than giving up. But still not ideal.

LucyEllensmummy · 25/12/2008 21:36

I agree and disagree. BM is by far the best and formula could never come near to it, in terms of health benefits, obviously. As you say, it is designed for that baby - not only that but as the babies needs change, so does the BM. It is absolutely the best thing for babies - you'll get no argument from me there.

But i do not agree with the suggestion that formula damages the immune system. By damage, one would assume that actual damage is done - damage to the actual mechanics of the immune system, damage to the cells involved in immune response, damage to antibodies. I think we can sleep safely in our beds in the knowledge that this doesn't happen.

BM helps a babies immunity by providing antibodies from the mother and therefore a degree of immunity to some conditions that she might have. Clearly formula will never ever be able to do this, but the lack of these antibodies doesn't cause any damage to the immune system. Eventually the baby will develop its own, in fact, every time its exposed to a pathogen it will produce antibodies against it. That is the basis of immunisation. Breast feeding provides the baby with a head start and this was the principal reason i wanted to breastfeed. Like you, Edam, i had to mix feed and i too did not feel that it was ideal. But how much of that feeling came from the pressure to BF. I did feel that i was damaging my child by feeding formula but i feel the media, HV and midwives have a lot to answer for by promoting this point of view. So, by BFing our children, we are providing them with the boost in immunity they need, but giving formula on top of this is not going to undo the good that has been done.

Maybe i am being niave, but i really don't think that the formula manufacturers are the evil mad scientists that they are portrayed as. Yes, in the boardroom on Nestle etc i have no doubt there are some pretty money hungry individuals who couldnt give a shit about child health other than the profit it brings them. But the actual nutritionists developing formulas, i am fairly confident, i hope, are VERY interested in infant health and do their best to produce the most healthy formula that we can.

Yes BF is best, but without formula we would go back to the days of babies starving or being undernourised due to drinking cows milk alone. Yes, there were wetnurses but i am sure plenty of people are here today who may well not be if we lived in a world without formula.

I know there is an issue with regards to allergies and my knowledge of this is limited so i haven't formed an opinion on it. For example, does a child with allergies or food intolerance develop this due to the LACK of breast milk, or does something in the formula sensitise them? For devilments sake, is it nothing whatsoever to do with how we feed the babies? I think there is enough research out there that suggests it is.

Anyways, thats enough of all that - my BF days are over which makes me and at the same time. because i miss the clossness, and because i had quite a tough time with it and i was knackered!

TheButterflyEffect · 25/12/2008 21:48

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LucyEllensmummy · 25/12/2008 22:09

of course i accept that the gut has a massive role to play in keeping out pathogens. I would have to admit to not being able to remember the role of the gut in immunity, apart from as a barrier and the role of "good" bacteria. So anything that interferes with this in any way may lead to potential infection. I cannot remember if the gut is considered part of the actual immune system. Obviously it has a HUGE role to play in preventing infection, but immunity, to me, is the actual actions of the immune system; antibodies, white blood cells, complement etc. I am very rusty but have studied immunity in the past.

BUT anyway, im not playing anymore because you ate all the popcorn.

More importantly though, i am seeming to be fighting the corner of FF, when i am really very much an avocate of BF and can be quite anal about it actually. So being knackered and having to cater for a party of 15 tomorrow i don't have the energy to argue an argument that i agree with the counter argument. Of course, HAD you not eaten all the popcorn, i might have been able to tide myself over .

That is the reason i am here, the catering - so im procrastinating.

So, my position which i am going to comment no further on is: I think that babies who are BF have a stronger immune system, but that FF doesn't damage the immune system per se.

Thankyou and goodnight, and have a lovely xmas

TheButterflyEffect · 25/12/2008 22:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

pantomimEDAMe · 25/12/2008 22:39

I think the argument of people who object to the 'health benefits of b/f' line is that b/f should be regarded the norm. So it's not 'benefits' of b/f but disadvantages of ff.

Anyhoo, it's really a debate for Tiktok and other people who are far better informed about it than me. Been a long time since I fed a baby!

rolereversal · 25/12/2008 23:26

will get popcorn thrown at me for this but....... i think there is a lot of bollocks spoken about the benefits of bf over ff .

There are so many other factors involved in the bringing up of children, to focus solely on bfing and its benefits can mean that whatever other crap you do, its ok cos you didnt use formula!!

bfers, stop being so smug, there is more to bringing up babies than this.

[ducks under table to avoid inevitable backlash]

BlueBumedFly · 25/12/2008 23:41

I will come and duck under the table with you too if you don't mind rolereversal.

I BFd by expressing for 4 months, DD would/could never latch on. So, how fed up am I that after 4 months of expressing 6 times a day (including 3am) that DD has had colds, ear infections, tonsillitis, GORD, egg allergy, wheat intollerance....

Hmmmmm.

TheButterflyEffect · 25/12/2008 23:52

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BlueBumedFly · 25/12/2008 23:55

TBE - thank you, it was hell, I hated it, but I felt I had to give it my very best shot.

I can do the plaits on the left side but not the right, may be emotionally scaring my kids with bad hair.

Talking of 3am, jut waiting to NHS Direct to call back as DD has had a 104 temp this evening which I am stuggling to control.

La-di-da

TheButterflyEffect · 26/12/2008 00:53

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stuffmyturkey · 26/12/2008 06:45

fevers are good
of course they are

have read very little of thread but I think vaccinations traumatise a baby's immune system and there's a lot of evidence that this is so

you can get into a vicious circle of ab's .. upset tummy.. affecting nutrition ..affecting immune system.. leading to illness.. leading to abs.. leading to upset tummy..affecting nutrition etc etc

the other side of it is that if the baby's immune system is allowed to fight these illnesses then it primes and trains it, like exercising a muscle

stuffmyturkey · 26/12/2008 06:46

apologies for not reading thread but for me it's not a debate about breast or bottle..

charmander · 26/12/2008 06:53

look on the bright side ds 2 (bf for 13 months) got every illness going, coughs, colds, gastic flu, chicken pox etc at 8 - 12 months when his elder brother started playgroup. Now he is rarely ill, a very healthy child except for occasional visits from friendly worms!

LucyEllensmummy · 26/12/2008 08:00

Butterfly - I can't do platts either, i just cant. I can do the single one that sticks up at all weird angles, but that lovely platt that looks all professional - nup nup nup. Mostly my DDs hair goes unbrushed xxx

LucyEllensmummy · 26/12/2008 08:22

Stuffmyturkey - i get absolutely grrrrrr about vaccinationphobes. As far as i am aware immune systems don't do traumatised . Already there is a re-emergence of childhood illnesses, serious childhood illnesses that can be fatal. The risks from Mumps are well known but people are willing to risk this because of the results of a relatively small body of research that has been refuted by the majority of the scientific community.

A vaccination exposes a child to enough pathogen to promote a response. The next time a child is exposed it then is able to mount a faster response and not become ill. I think we have to look more at what is on our plates and in our houses when looking for the culprits for allergies and sensitivities. A good argument for eating organic, i wish i could afford to do so - but i grow my own, chemical free - just the odd bit of dog shit in the soil! We steralise everything to within an inch of its life, anti bacterial this, anti bacterial that - if you take a laboratory animal that has grown in a sterile environment into the "real" world, chances are it will get sick and die - its immune system is weak. I have my own theories about allergies. Take peanut allergy - it is a significant and serious problem. But we had never heard of it when i was a child, not really even when DD1 was born, 18 years ago. Why is that? I think there is a build up of allergens from the environment in the soil/air and this is incorporated into the nuts. That or there has been a random genetic mutation in the nut trees which has resulted in the production of a protein that causes allergic reaction in some people.

I totally 100% agree with you about antibiotics, they have had their day and over prescription has seen to that. You are right - our immune systems develop better when we are exposed to lots of pathogens (within reason). Vaccinations do not work the same way as antibiotics

LucyEllensmummy · 26/12/2008 08:22

Stuffmyturkey - i get absolutely grrrrrr about vaccinationphobes. As far as i am aware immune systems don't do traumatised . Already there is a re-emergence of childhood illnesses, serious childhood illnesses that can be fatal. The risks from Mumps are well known but people are willing to risk this because of the results of a relatively small body of research that has been refuted by the majority of the scientific community.

A vaccination exposes a child to enough pathogen to promote a response. The next time a child is exposed it then is able to mount a faster response and not become ill. I think we have to look more at what is on our plates and in our houses when looking for the culprits for allergies and sensitivities. A good argument for eating organic, i wish i could afford to do so - but i grow my own, chemical free - just the odd bit of dog shit in the soil! We steralise everything to within an inch of its life, anti bacterial this, anti bacterial that - if you take a laboratory animal that has grown in a sterile environment into the "real" world, chances are it will get sick and die - its immune system is weak. I have my own theories about allergies. Take peanut allergy - it is a significant and serious problem. But we had never heard of it when i was a child, not really even when DD1 was born, 18 years ago. Why is that? I think there is a build up of allergens from the environment in the soil/air and this is incorporated into the nuts. That or there has been a random genetic mutation in the nut trees which has resulted in the production of a protein that causes allergic reaction in some people.

I totally 100% agree with you about antibiotics, they have had their day and over prescription has seen to that. You are right - our immune systems develop better when we are exposed to lots of pathogens (within reason). Vaccinations do not work the same way as antibiotics

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