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Autumn Term at the Chalet School

999 replies

Vintagejazz · 25/09/2014 11:19

Just starting a new thread here as I can't spot a new one.

So my lambs feel free to keep spreading the hanes, but watch the slang!

OP posts:
EmilyAlice · 25/10/2014 18:32

Yes something about arranging her clothes with the neat fingers of her French grandmother... (Not something I have noticed round here where a glorious mismatch of fabrics, colours and patterns is more the local style).
I am still not sure she is deliberately putting Simone in a good light, she is always on Joey's side, I think.
And yes, Enid Blyton makes a joke of all the Mam'zelles.
I was quite surprised to hear people refer to middle-aged unmarried women as "vieilles filles" when we first moved here.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/10/2014 18:38

No, that's what I meant - I don't think she means to portray Simone so sympathetically at all (esp when it's at the cost of making Joey look like a bit of an arsehole) and yet I can't help reading it that way. Which is a curious thing I often find with EBD...

EmilyAlice · 25/10/2014 18:46

So as an author, do we think that she was totally lacking in self-awareness and sometimes managed to make characters sympathetic when she didn't mean to do that?
Am trying to think of other literary examples...

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/10/2014 19:05

I have to say, that is my overall impression (based also on the bits of biog I can recall reading around)!

I suppose she also very much believed in her own characters, at least in the earlier books, so kind of let them have free reign a bit - hence the frequent disconnect with the authorial voice? Does that sound too trite/does it even make sense? I don't want to diminish her work but I kind of feel that a lot of her best storytelling happens when she's not quite paying critical attention...

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/10/2014 19:12

I find what she says about good writing in Jo Returns really intriguing. I mean, firstly there's the thing about making lists - which I suppose she may well have been doing, I think some mistakes in continuity are much more forgiveable than others. But more interesting (imo) is the thing about not making characters outright 'good' or 'bad'. The only unmitigated 'bad' character I can think of off the top of my head is Matron Webb - I do think Miss Bubb, Matron Besley, Thekla, Betty W-D are all deliberately nuanced - but bloody Jo is, for most of the series, impossibly virtuous; her faults are presented as kind of charming, the same way as a job candidate at interview might describe their worst feature as being their perfectionism. And worse still is how all the other characters react to her - the kind of centrality she assumes in everyone else's life. I can't see how this can sit well with EBD's own advice about making characters plausible, unless by suggesting that she lacked self-awareness in fairly sizeable ways.

EmilyAlice · 25/10/2014 19:14

It would be interesting to know what the time pressures / constraints from the publishers were. A book a year?
She obviously got a lot from her travels. At best this is interesting and at worst reads like an extract from a guidebook (especially in the Oberland). She constantly rehashes plots and characters and has all the continuity errors that we have noticed. And yet, there is a depth to her writing and her understanding of European politics that lifts the books out of normsl school story.
I do think she was out of touch by the fifties / sixties though. None of the later books ring true to me as a description of that time.

EmilyAlice · 25/10/2014 19:21

No doubt, I think, that Jo is what EBD wanted to be; writer, wife, mother. The fact that she obviously didn't have a clue what the last two involved is quite sad.
"Left on the shelf" is the awful, contemporary phrase that always springs to mind.

TheObligatoryNotQuiteSoNewGirl · 25/10/2014 20:07

The "French fingers" is in Wrong - I'm reading it at the moment, but it's in the other room, and I can't be bother to go and get it at the moment to check exactly who. Some usually untidy kid, iirc.

The other thing I found in Wrong is a blatant EBDism, where Elfie Woodward appears to be two Guide patrols in two successive pages...

TheObligatoryNotQuiteSoNewGirl · 25/10/2014 20:20

Found it! The new girl, Norah Fitzgerald, one of the Junior Middles responsible for practicing Jiu jitsu after lights out.

And the Elfie EBDism is "The Laburnums, headed by Julie Lucy and Elfie Woodward..." and then literally two paragraphs later "The Poplars, who were to be in charge of the cooking, lead by Bride Bettany, who was an old hand at camping, and Elfie Woodward, a great friend of hers".

I think that vies for "quickest contradiction" with the one about walk escorts for the third form in one of the Swiss books (Challenge?)

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/10/2014 21:26

Heh. You know, I remember reading Elfie's great feat of leading two patrols as a child, and not understanding but being convinced that the failing was somehow mine.

On the 'guide book' effect: I'd previously put this down simply to her being personally familiar with Pertisau, Herefordshire etc, whereas it seems highly unlikely she had ever visited Switzerland - but increasingly I think it's probably more about her declining writing power (or effort?): I think this c/o the island books, which are not my personal favourites but are remarkably evocative of their location in spite of it quite probably being fictional (I know there is a line of argument that Carnbach is Tenby but there seems plenty of reason to dispute this). And the gap between the brilliantly-captured characters in the first half(ish) of the series and the weaker, transient characters of the latter suggests the same. Her earlier characters are bloody glorious, some of them.
Likewise I can tolerate much more rehashing earlier in the series, and I think it has to be simply that it's better done. I think it's Bob Dixon who complains that all the girls are able to do is fall repeatedly down holes, and he's not entirely without a point: but still, Jo falling down a hole in Camp feels entirely reasonable to me, and when Corney falls into the belly of the mountain (;)) in the very next book I don't find myself going "oh, here we go again". I'm still perfectly happy to accept Peggy Burnett falling down a hole in Shocks. I don't really roll my eyes at Joey being the heroic rescuer in Princess, Rivals, and, er, which is the one where Grizel goes off up the Tiernjoch? Because I think all of these are well-written and although Joey looms a bit larger than life, I buy into them as pieces of fiction.

I obviously can't comment on the accuracy of the later books as depictions of the 1950s/1960s, though am v interested to read thoughts on this. It makes sense to me - increasingly I get a sense of an ageing woman who is decidedly unimpressed by Modern Life - as I suppose is frequent but by no means 'the normal'. I wonder if EBD thought of her books as being set in the time she was writing, at that point? (Am thinking in terms of the 'dating' I know some Chaletians prefer, whereby the triplets are taken to be born in November 1939 and so all books' dates are taken to be in accordance with that - so when they're leaving in Prefects, pub.1970, it's supposed to be 'set' c.1958 - I mostly feel sceptical about this kind of dating but it's an interesting one, particularly as the somewhat artificial environment of the Platz gave EBD a lot of licence to fudge her setting.)

Later on I think she's averaging two books or even three a year, isn't she? I'm too lazy to look it up right now. I do wonder what that was like, shifting from combining teaching and writing to writing full-time - I suppose I'm partly intrigued because for me, that's the exact point at which the series nose-dives (Three Go) : the liberation from other pursuits which must drain energies, vs knowing the books have to earn sufficient income and therefore a focus on quantity over quality? I feel like at one time she was in love with the world she had created and later on, perhaps only intermittently so; but I've no evidence whatsoever to support that suggestion.

I flip-flop back and forth on whether/in what way she wanted to 'be' Joey: I'm not convinced she necessarily wanted to be a wife and mother as Joey is - maybe, maybe not - as you say Emily she may have known very little of what that meant. I do think she wanted to have people react to her as they do to Joey - the way Joey is uppermost in people's minds even when she's not present, even when she's halfway around the world. The go-to example of wholesaleness, the definitive Naughty Middle, the definitive Best Head Girl. I adore the books and am super-grateful for them, but I suspect I would have found EBD a very trying acquaintance irl!

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/10/2014 21:32

Oh: I'm still reading my book about interwar spinsters, but this quote - from Ruth Adam's 1938 novel I'm Not Complaining which is about spinster teachers - made me think of EBD and possibly longing for a Joey-style existence and possibly not:

"Hardworking, contented women like me get this longing, from time to time, for all the experiences that have passed us by. We do not go mad over it, as women do in psychological books, nor even get a little bit queer. It goes off after a few days and we are ourselves again."

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 25/10/2014 22:07

Nell, bless you - it may be Anna's juniper tisane talking, but you write the most thought-provoking posts!

I think it's generally accepted that EBD never visited Switzerland - she only ever had one passport and that was issued in about 1923, so it's pretty safe to say that she didn't visit Switzerland in the 50s. I do get pissed off by the guide-book effect because I think that is precisely what it is - all those descriptions of museums in Geneva or wherever they are, plus traditional local foods - I do think she lifted them directly from guidebooks. One reason I think this is because I've found other examples of EBD plagiarising plotlines etc. I read some school stories on Gutenberg written by a Mrs George de Horne Vaizey in the early 1900s, and although I have now forgotten which particular episodes EBD lifts, they were very strikingly similar and I don't think you could do that without having read the earlier works. Also, is it The Girls of the Hamlet Club where someone cheats at sums in precisely the same way as Ruth Barnes does in Island?

By the by - another thoroughly bad lot - Vera Smithers? She hasn't any redeeming features either.

Emily, I think in general, EBD was (at least in the beginning) pretty aware of how her characters would be perceived. I just think she has a blind spot where first Joey and later Mary-Lou are concerned. Similar authorial blindness: Dorothy Sayers and the way Lord Peter Wimsey is marvellous at everything? Think it's at its worst in Murder Must Advertise when he's doing death-defying stunt diving into a fountain. However, Harriet in later books has the grace to find this really annoying in him, so Dorothy Sayers at least had that much self-awareness. also I adore Lord Peter and Harriet

I like Simone as Miss Lecoutier the maths mistress. I think she really comes into her own there.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 26/10/2014 06:07

Cheddar my lamb, are you accusing me of drunken posting, or merely saying that my ramblings are only thought-provoking through your own drunken haze? ;)

Does reading the 'original' version of those incidents diminish the EBD version? I think I've also read that the School-San connection was largely borrowed from EJO's Swiss books, though I can't recall a source for this. Actually, if anyone's able to comment on EJO's Swiss setting compared with EBD's Austria and Switzerland, I'd be really interested in that, too.

I think the bird-watching bits in whichever island book/s it was are similarly lifted (more or less) from books, but if they are it seems better done than the potted history/geography of Switzerland on later expeditions. I still don't personally find it very interesting, but it doesn't have the same clunky feel. Maybe I'm guessing wrongly and she did know personally what she was writing about with Bellend's birds, though.

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 06:22

Morning all.
The dating by the birth of the triplets makes sense to me. They are the same age as my sister and the last books read much more like her childhood and adolescence than mine, ten years later. Even so I think she gets names wrong, Hilary's Marjorie grates and I don't remember any Reginalds amongst my sister's friends (exhaustive survey, not).
Thanks for reminding me about DLS being in love with Lord Peter, Cheddar. I had forgotten that. The back story there was very sad.
I wonder if Nell's character was based on a teacher EBD knew or if she was the idealised, jolly, vocationally-fulfilled teacher that EBD couldn't quite aspire to either.
There must be so much trauma around her relationship with her father and I think we can only guess at the impact and how she tries to resolve her feelings through her books.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 26/10/2014 07:22

What do you mean about names, Emily?

My major issue with the dating by triplets' birth is when it's extended backwards - so, since Jo is 21(ish) when they're born, her own DOB must be 1918ish. Which means, for example, that School at is 'set' in 1930, which is clearly rubbish. I think it's a system worth bearing in mind but I don't think it's as definitive as is sometimes suggested because I don't think EBD was really ever making a conscientious effort to 'set' books at a different point in time from when she was writing.

This is only ever v occasionally relevant, but I think it makes a critical difference at times. So, dating from Nov 1939 gives Madge and Nell an approx DOB of 1906, whereas if you date them from School at or Princess you'd get 1900 - which makes them much more EBD's peers than otherwise appears. (I think Hilda is most interestingly in this regard, because I think she is the character EBD most wants to 'be'.)

I know I've also read - poss even on one of these threads? - that Jean of Storms captures a v grim gossippy small town environment, which perhaps recalls her own childhood. I've not read it myself though.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 26/10/2014 07:28

A conscious effort, even. Blush

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 07:45

I thought Joey was born in 1918. That is why I am getting ready to celebrate her 96th and my 65th on the same day in November this year. Hmm
The names don't sound right to me for the time / social class and seem to me to be a much older generation. My sister's contemporaries are Jennifer, Susan, Margaret, David, John, Peter, Michael type names, not Marjorie or Reginald (though he dates from the twenties, I guess).

IrenetheQuaint · 26/10/2014 07:50

I agree with Nell re the dating. EBD just set books roughly when she was writing them. Plus in her later years she was old-fashioned/out of touch, hence they don't feel like they're set in the '60s even though they are supposed to be contemporaneous. Bar that one reference to beatniks or whatever it is!

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 08:33

It reminds me of Nancy Mitford struggling with Beards and Teds in in "Don't Tell Alfred".
EBD was spot on with Joan and Rosamund though. My mother would have said that Joan was a very common name and Rosamund was far too fancy for someone whose mother had been in service. Sad

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 09:02

I have been thinking about EBD and social class while doing the housework and I don't think you can underestimate the gap between her family life and her aspirations to a secure, upper-middle class family like the Maynards / Bettany / Russells.
It all sounds horrendously snobbish now (and it was), but it was so much a part of how many people thought and behaved at the time.
"You must always go up, never down" and "you can't do xyz, it is common, villagey etc", were things we heard all the time as children.
I think she would have suffered a lot from the shame of her father's departure, financial hardship (?) and she was perhaps almost seeking refuge in her characters and her fictional school.

TheObligatoryNotQuiteSoNewGirl · 26/10/2014 09:04

I have been quite religiously trying to date the books as I've been rereading them this time - I have a table in OneNote, which has the name of the book; the school year in which it's set (School At is Summer 0, Jo of is Autumn 1 and Spring 1, and so on), accounting for the missing terms; the probable year this is (earlier books up until Exile have two dates - one counting back from the triplets' birth in November 1939, and the other counting around the Oberammergau visit in 1930, because the Passion Play was only once a decade; and then a column for notes, mostly about who was Head Girl, and who was born. I'm also collecting dates of birth for all the Russell/Bettany/Maynards, and trying to get as many names of children of old girls/mistresses down as possible.

But Carola throws me, because it's the first book we actually get a concrete year, because Carola was born in 1936, "which means she's turning fifteen this year). Which makes Carola (and Wrong and Shocks) set in 1951, when, by my calculations, it should old be 1949.

That said, counting the terms does put Coming of Age as Summer 21, so EBD must've been doing some sort of counting to get that right. Calculations from the Triplets' birth puts that as 1953, making the school start in 1932, or alternatively, from the Carola date, Coming of Age would be 1955, and School At 1934. Neither of which mesh with the Passion Play date, in and Jo, four years after School At.

I'm going to drive myself mad doing this, aren't I?

JuniperTisane · 26/10/2014 09:04

Don't you think, though, that in the case of girls names at least, she did look for slightly less usual ones to populate the books. There are only so many Joans and Marys and Susans anyone can keep track of. Surely she was just writing to appeal to the girls reading her stories and who wants to keep seeing Mavis and Doreen over and over?

JuniperTisane · 26/10/2014 09:06

If any of you are called Joan, Mary, Susan, Mavis or Doreen I'm very sorry. Its the Tisane talking of course...

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 09:18

Yes I am sure that is right and I quite like her unusual names like Jacynth, Richenda and Ruhannah. Not Marjorie though.

EmilyAlice · 26/10/2014 09:44

Sounds like an epic task ObligatoryNotQuite.
Actually what we need is a railway buff. Someone who could date all the books from Bradshaw's Railway Guide.
Even better, maybe Michael Portillo could do a series. The branch lines and mountain railways of the Tyrol, the connection times at York carrying a cello, how Peggy got on the wrong train, why it was so exhausting to go from Folkestone to Boulogne despite nannies, maids and passing American millionaires, across Britain in wartime, Great Swiss Railway Journeys (oh no they have done that already, I should have paid more attention)......

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