Anyone know about the history of children's literature? I have a weird question.

[NowBringUsSomeFuzzpiggyPudding]

Not sure if this is the best place but I'm hoping somebody knowledgeable can answer this for me. :)

So, I've been reading chapter books to my 6yo and we've nearly finished the unabridged Peter Pan and Wendy. It's the first chapter book we've done that was unfamiliar to me (in that I hadn't read it myself as a child) and I was really surprised at just how tricky some of the language was and how lengthy the descriptions are compared to more recent books.

Should've expected it really but it got me thinking, did children at the time of PPAW etc have much better understanding of more elaborate language and they would have understood it as easily as modern children would understand a modern book? Is it just that the English language as a whole has changed?

Or is it because back then (I'm crap at history, can you tell?!) only wealthier children had access to education and books and so a higher standard of language was used?

Or is it that at the time, authors were less aware of their audience and the 'need' to simplify things for children to be able to understand them?

Does any of that even make sense hoping somebody gets what I mean!

I dunno... Diagon Alley? Not over complex really, is it?

Oh God I just realised Diagon Alley

There's some good children's poetry around nowadays which has interesting language. And there are authors who revel in language and ideas - as you might guess from my name I'll cite Terry Pratchett.

I don't think the London Child books would be any good for 8-9 yos, even mature advanced reading ones. Teenagers, perhaps.

I'm reading this with interest LRD, hopefully some of it will stick in my mind for when my 1yo is old enough!

Ok, I thought the puns were complex.

I mean, not, like, hugely complex, but for a child? Or, um, me? I am with jane in tha there's a fair few I really didn't get until they were explained.

I agree with errol, there's some brilliant writing around. YA fiction is especially up-and-coming IMO.

I suppose few poor or ill-educated kids got the chance to read it when it was written.

ok I thought I'd read a lot as a child (and adult) but I've not heard of mrs molesworth or the london child books. I've exhausted my range with dd1 and I'm not ready for her to read teenage stuff yet - she's living on a diet of morpurgo at the moment and gets through a book every two days. She's year 6 - has anyone got anything that's a must read from classics (that I haven't even heard of or have forgotten)? sorry for hijack.

I dunno how 'classic' but some of the Rosemary Sutcliffe books are good, and Michelle Magorian (Goodnight Mr Tom, but also Back Home and Cuckoo in the Nest).

Proper classic classics not so sure, but someone else will be.

mane - well, hard to say without a list of what you've read so far!
My list included Nesbitt, Frances Hodgson Burnett, all 4 Little Women, all the Anne of Green Gables series, the Katy Dids, Tom Sawyer, all the Swallows and Amazons, Narnia (of course), Hobbit, The Water Babies, Peter Pan (and new sequel), Treasure Island, David Copperfield, Oliver Twist, Gulliver's Travels, Tom's Midnight Garden ... and the pratchetts of course.

Oh to be 10/11 again with all those books waiting for one...

Have you tried looking down the list of Carnegie Medal winners? Many of the 20th century children's greats are there.

Oh, yes.

ok thanks a lot, that's reminded me of a few, LRD I've read goodnight mr tom but not the others and nothing by sutcliffe.

Errol She's read a lot of current popular fiction in her age bracket but not a lot of historical, I think E.nesbitt, blyton but soon gave up on them, swallows and amazons and secret garden and little princess. Just she doesn't immediately want to read some of my old books because the covers aren't as appealing and it takes a little longer to get into them. But I'd totally forgotten quite a lot of things i loved like katy and little women - thanks both of you, I can now create a granny list for her birthday...

mooncup, thanks too. Will do. I find that sometimes even a ten year old needs reading to...i read swallows and amazons to her and dd2 a couple of years ago and found it hard to put it down. It's fab rediscovering old friends - as I think someone up thread said.

What about some more recent stuff. All those brilliant war books like Carrie's War or the Machine Gunners or the silver Sword? disney films are a good source of good kids novels: Mary Poppins, bedknobs and broomsticks, 101 Dalmations (and not a Disney film but i cApture the Castle). There are too many kids books and not enought time!

Plenty of kids can and do read old literature these days just the same as they did in the olden days.

My DS read PP&W to himself at 6 and loved it.

We've been reading all the E Nesbit books at bedtime and they've understood most of the language with hardly any input from me.

If you read a lot you're exposed to far more language.Kids read a lot in the olden days,many do these days.My dc do read a lot and a huge variety,all sorts new and old.Language and comprehension certainly isn't a barrier.

101 Dalmatians
The book is so much better than the films!

I find that sometimes even a ten year old needs reading to

absolutely! Just because a child can read themselves doesn't mean that we should stop reading to them if they (and we) enjoy it.

Little Women is one with a rather difficult start - especially as a child nowadays may not have come across Pilgrim's Progress, and the setting in Civil War America is unfamiliar - I seem to remember stalling on it but then we acquired an abridged version with illustrations - after reading that I read the full version of all the books.

Some books I came to after seeing the wonderful BBC serial adaptations - some of which are available on DVD.

Finally finished PP this evening! :)

There's no way DD could've read it properly herself yet though retropear! AFAIK she is pretty much average in her school year. I'm impressed by your DS :o

I think I would have been able to read it fluently at that age, but I don't know how much I would've taken in (due to the processing issues I mentioned in an earlier post). Perhaps it would've been easier due to having seen the film (as opposed to reading a book where I had no prior knowledge of the story) - although the problems I have understanding things also apply to watching things and particularly listening to somebody reading aloud, audiobooks, lectures etc - makes things very difficult at times :( but that's another thread been there done that

Anyway, the whole thing has made me realise that maybe I've been expecting too little (having had very pushy parents I've been conscious not to push my DD too hard... it is a tricky balance to find though) and could read more difficult things - which is what made me start the thread in the first place, as I was wondering if/how much/why expectations of children's reading ability has changed over time.

Very grateful for all the responses, it's really fascinating stuff (even if I do have to read the thread a couple of times to understand it )

Haven't finished catching up yet but just noticed Errol - yes I think it's great to read to older children too. When my DD went through a phase earlier this year of not wanting to do her school reading, it took a lot of reassurance to coax her back into the habit - turned out she was worried that once she could read to herself we would no longer read to her! I promised her we'd read to her as long as she wanted us to and she seemed to feel better about it after that :)

now bring us some fuzz or are you nbusfp?? I don't think pushy works but I think it's nice to try and inspire your kids by sharing passions. I enjoy reading with them. Not that they nec needed/wanted me to just that I did espec as I have two littler boys and I think my girls get less time with me because I'm always caught up with the babies. ALTHOUGH errol I kind of meant it in a more 'because i then get a secret read myself' way, it sounded a bit patronising when I read it back! sorry.

I think we will start little women together now and they can read some of the others on their own.

What an interesting thread.

My 6yo DD is reading My Naughty Little Sister (written in 1950s) and I would not say the language is generally more difficult than, say, the rainbow fairies books (excepting words which are no longer in common use, eg counterpane).

However I've certainly noticed it with other books, eg Just William mentioned above.

Hassled I was an avid reader and enjoyed Gerald Durrell, but I remember finding the descriptive bits of My Family and Other Animals too long and tedious and skipping to the bits with his family in!

Well, I'm thoroughly looking forward to a shared dose of The Hogfather tonight, which by lucky chance is the book we're on ... once I can get DD's nose out of the book she's been lent for the holidays which is entitled something like 'Applications of Operational Amplifiers'. (no, me neither, we didn't do electronics back in my day! )

I was thinking about this thread during a carol service today. I remember as a child noticing how much books like the Nesbits (Wouldbegoods etc) talked about morals, honour, doing the right thing. I haven't come across that kind of content in modern day children's literature - although since my DD is only 5 really the only contemporary chapter books we have read are Horrid Henry, Rainbow Fairies and Amy Wild Animal Talker so I don't know whether this is a "thing" or not - anyone care to comment?

Oh, that's interesting ... I immediately think of Harry Potter where they do talk about it. But then that is deliberately evoking older fiction, I guess.

I think it is a 'thing'. I think perhaps it's cultural as well as in books, too -I was reading some old family letters the other day and they are much more full of the idea that you must be constantly 'doing your duty'.

I'll answer to anything really, but generally go by Fuzz/fuzzpig :o

Sharing passions is a lovely way of putting it. I do get a bit obsessive over nostalgia when it comes to books/videos I loved (didn't have much else to be attached to as a child) and it makes me very happy to share things with my DCs and see them enjoy the same things I did! I work in a library and am currently arranging a big stock promotion of old, perhaps forgotten children's books that parents might be reminded of and rediscover with their own DCs :)