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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

Childcare reform: what about parents not on benefits?

212 replies

justwren · 12/03/2023 00:16

So universal credit claimants will be entitled to more help with childcare costs as announced by the govt this week.
What about those who aren't on benefits?
We're the ones who have to be finding 14k a year for one child in nursery. I'm not entitled to any benefits because my husband earns £34k a year. That's hardly millions!

Why is there no support being offered to the families who are having to pay for it in its entirety?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
RedHelenB · 12/03/2023 11:25

liveforsummer · 12/03/2023 11:12

You definitely could 😆 you chose not to

This.

LadyWindermeresOnlyFans · 12/03/2023 11:27

@kitsuneghost post · Today 11:10

Why on earth would you even have kids on benefits. Talk about thick. We are on a household income of 70k with 100k savings and couldn't afford kids.

Hmm You can't be very good at prioritising and managing your money then, can you? Maybe you could go on a course. Many local councils have money advice services for free. HTH.

Mummyoflittledragon · 12/03/2023 11:28

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 12/03/2023 10:20

So why is she forking out for childcare?

Because she’s too ill to look after her children. This was the same with me with dd. Not working and dd in nursery.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 11:30

LadyWindermeresOnlyFans · 12/03/2023 11:24

@ScruffyGiraffe absolutely noted. Thank you for taking the time to highlight this. I often wonder how on earth single parents (mothers) do it, but in terms of the day to day slog, rather than the financials. I'll definitely think more widely now about it all. We definitely do need to come together and shout for each other, not just those in the same circumstances as our own.

Thank you. Absolutely. The whole system needs reform but it would be great if more people were interesting in pushing for the reforms that would help those for whom the problems are compounded: single parents who are getting half of the allowances that everyone else has, and parents with disabled DC for which childcare is much, much more expensive. We should all stand side by side to insist on these changes which directly impoverish women and children.

smellyflowers · 12/03/2023 11:31

justwren · 12/03/2023 09:47

It's not 30 free hours- it's fifteen when they get to three

I get 30 funded hours

Persipan · 12/03/2023 11:33

We don't actually know what's in the budget until it happens, so there's that (although I acknowledge the practice of the government heavily hinting in advance is pretty solidly embedded now).

Whilst I would very much like to see substantial reform of childcare, I'm not really convinced the bastard Tories are the people to do it - anything they were to offer would be superficially shiny but would ultimately subtly screw over both parents and providers. I'm encouraged by the fact that Labour are focusing on childcare, so hope that they'll be in a position to enact that before too long.

In the meantime, I do think it's right that the cap on UC childcare costs be raised. The figure of 'up to 85%' of costs being covered gets bandied about, but the cap is massively less than 85% of the amount of a full-time childcare place so it's disingenuous that it's presented in these terms. The cap is a huge barrier to work. There are many, many other things I'd also like to change about childcare support for parents but even if I'm not going to see any of those changes, I don't have it in me to get worked up about some additional support being offered to people on low wages.

LadyWindermeresOnlyFans · 12/03/2023 11:33

@ScruffyGiraffe yes and they are the parents who already have to fight for adequate support for their children day to day anyway. It must be exhausting.

IhearyouClemFandango · 12/03/2023 11:34

If the OP is so ill that they can neither work nor look after their children they will be eligible for some kind of help, which would then open the door to reduced price childcare etc.

Fundays12 · 12/03/2023 11:34

BridetoBee · 12/03/2023 09:43

@Fundays12 i know it’s not hugely helpful but the 30 hours can be stretched. It’s then about 22 hours a week year round, which could give you a couple of full days or even 4 afternoons/mornings depending on how flexible the work is you found.

Thanks but unfortunately we can't do that either as the setting my youngest is in doesn't offer it. My oldest has disabilities which make different pick up and drop of locations impossible.

kegofcoffee · 12/03/2023 11:40

Also in the outside of UC bracket because of DHs earning. Plus in commuter belt SE so insane costs for childcare l, and everything else.

I'm currently out of work and looking for a new job. I can only afford to work reduced hours; either 5 shorter days or 4 full days.

Despite all the 'were a flexible employer... let use know what accommodations you need... we understand 9-5 doesn't work for everyone.... blah blah blah...' when you mention needing something other than 9-5 they say it's 'not open to new employees', or 'we're busy so it has to be full time' or 'we can't offer reduced hours for senior roles'... I've heard it all.

5 full days for 2 kids, including discount and free hours for one of them is £2700 a month. Most are also asking for 3 days in the office, so then there's a £450 a month season ticket.

£3150 a month for childcare and travel!!!!

After tax, NI, and student loan I need at £55k salary to break even.

I'm in the sort of industry where if I take a career break id never get back in. Or best case id have to start from the bottom again.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 11:42

LadyWindermeresOnlyFans · 12/03/2023 11:33

@ScruffyGiraffe yes and they are the parents who already have to fight for adequate support for their children day to day anyway. It must be exhausting.

It is. I'm averaging 1-3 hours sleep per night and have been for a few years now. No support financial or otherwise. Mortgage on my own. Childcare bill of £2.5k per month. If they would at least tax me only the same as a dual income household then maybe I could breathe, or very occasionally have some respite with childcare when I'm not working so I could sleep for a few hours. At the moment I am either working or looking after disabled DCs 24/7. It really stings that we'd be so much better off if they'd just give us the same level of tax allowances as households with two parents and the same income.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 11:56

And honestly, if this were implemented, not only would it benefit women and children immensely, but it would pay for itself! This is how it's done in France, Denmark, many other countries: allowances allocated on a household basis. People complain about single mothers not working/ not working much but if they could work/ work more and take home the same that two parent families do for that same gross income earned, then they would!! So more tax revenue, more productivity.

I have seen the calculations of what we'd get in benefits if I didn't work and hadn't spent my 20s working 90 hour weeks to build a career and bought a house before having children. We'd have our rent paid and due to my DCs' disabilities we'd have over £3k per month on top of that. No childcare cost then and no mortgage, far more time with my children, not doing this damage to my own health, so we'd be far better off than now.

It is an absolute kick in the teeth! And economically makes no sense: surely the state should rather give me the same tax allowances as a couple with children but still get a large chunk of tax from me per month and me fund all of our living costs, rather than push my health over the edge and them then have to pay for everything? I really don't get it.

It does feel like it's just part of the vilification of single mothers so nobody cares, because there's no logic to it, so it means a lot to hear people like you @LadyWindermeresOnlyFans say that you're hearing us (single parents/ parents of disabled DC) and support the system being changed to be fair to us. Just want to be taxed the same as other households with the same income, that's all! I really don't think it's unreasonable. I hope others will think about it and also write to MPs etc to support this being changed.

Babyroobs · 12/03/2023 11:57

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 11:42

It is. I'm averaging 1-3 hours sleep per night and have been for a few years now. No support financial or otherwise. Mortgage on my own. Childcare bill of £2.5k per month. If they would at least tax me only the same as a dual income household then maybe I could breathe, or very occasionally have some respite with childcare when I'm not working so I could sleep for a few hours. At the moment I am either working or looking after disabled DCs 24/7. It really stings that we'd be so much better off if they'd just give us the same level of tax allowances as households with two parents and the same income.

You must be on a pretty high income if paying that in childcare and not entitled to any UC ?

smellyflowers · 12/03/2023 12:00

If you can't work why do you need childcare? So you get free hours for the kids benefit but why do you need the extra? Is it so you can rest?

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 12:00

Not much use having a decent income on paper if you're taxed more than other families earning the same and what is left is all sucked up by mortgage and childcare (which for disabled DCs is not going to reduce anytime soon...) and you can barely afford to keep the heating on and feed them properly.

Bucketheadbucketbum · 12/03/2023 12:01

babynoname22 · 12/03/2023 08:24

The 30 hours is only when they are 3. What about before then? Also you have to be earning minimum amount to qualify and even then maybe not enough.

On paper my DH and I earn 'good wages' but with COLC and childcare we are really struggling. WITH our 30 hours our childcare bill is still £980 a month for our two children. That's with the 20.% tax free Our mortgage has gone up the electricity and gas bill is crippling us as well as the food bills.

We have £30 left at the end of the month

The childcare bill is killing us

Agreed. I am resigning this month and cant bloody wait. I am better taking a career break until all DC in full time education. Feel like we are killing ourselves grafting and only ending up with about 50£ more at end of month than if I was at home making memories with the kids. So long suckers!

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 12:07

@Babyroobs our productivity as a country is being trashed partly by the disincentives in the tax system at all levels of earnings per the article I posted earlier. What was shocking was that Hunt had to set up an enquiry to find this out when it's obvious to most people. If we want living standards to rise and public services to be properly funded then increasing productivity is the only way to do it and no matter what other economic reforms are made they won't achieve their goal without reforms to these issues with the tax system, at all levels. It will benefit everybody to fix these issues, it's a no-brainer. Here's the article again so save scrolling back:

amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

Plenty of research on this from other countries too. We don't have to reinvent the wheel: just emulate the systems that they have already tried and tested and work.

The issues for single parents and parents of disabled DC are the same, but magnified for the reasons I've explained. So yes, it's good if people recognise that and changes to address that are supported by everyone because they are often ignored in the conversation by all politicians. And it would be in everyone's interests to fix this in terms of child poverty, equality for women, basic fairness but also productivity and tax revenue.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 12:17

Feels like you literally can't win. If a lone parent and not working you'd be called a scrounger. If you work full time in a stressful job and try to fund everything yourself you get comments like "you must be on a pretty high income..?" implying that you should just suck it up that you're charged more tax than other families with the same income. Even when so many posters have said they're struggling when there are two of them, so they have 48 hours per day to split between work and childcare and pay less tax on the same earnings. 🫣🤦🏼‍♀️

I would love women to stand together on this and campaign to end this discrimination. Believe me, anybody could find themselves in this situation even if you do everything "right": long established marriage before children, already own a home, already established a good career. It is in all of our interests to get this discrimination against single parents (90%+ women) stopped.

LadyJ2023 · 12/03/2023 12:27

Actually it's 15-30 hours free child care depending on circumstances. If you have serious health issues then why aren't you getting pip or esa they have nothing to do with a partners wages. I have health issues, partner works full time, but our 3 youngest are still home just started looking into nurserys and we only have to pay a small amount currently towards it if I do put them in.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 12:39

Only people earning very low incomes get 15 hours before their child turns 3.

Everyone gets 15 hours after that. But as stated upthread it's not really 15 hours: that is based on it being term time only. What working parent can take 13 weeks a year of annual leave (except the very tiny proportion who are teachers or TAs or who have term-time only contracts in othet professions). Therefore nurseries generally average out these hours over the year meaning 15 hours is actually 11 per week. And because the Government funding for these hours is insufficient to cover the nurseries' costs, there are usually additional charges for these hours. Then all other hours have to be paid for at full rate.

Some people also get another 15 hours funded at aged 3 if all adults in the household work and earn over and under certain thresholds. But again this "30 hours" figure is misleading and equates to if you only had childcare in term time. In reality it is 22 houra per week. So someone with a full time job even if they got the 22 hours would have to pay top up fees for those hours, and then fund another 20 hours or so themself to cover full time work. Even if they met the criteria to be eligible for this, which some do not.

drpet49 · 12/03/2023 12:42

babynoname22 · 12/03/2023 08:24

The 30 hours is only when they are 3. What about before then? Also you have to be earning minimum amount to qualify and even then maybe not enough.

On paper my DH and I earn 'good wages' but with COLC and childcare we are really struggling. WITH our 30 hours our childcare bill is still £980 a month for our two children. That's with the 20.% tax free Our mortgage has gone up the electricity and gas bill is crippling us as well as the food bills.

We have £30 left at the end of the month

The childcare bill is killing us

This. The 30hrs come too late for the majority of families.

Badbudgeter · 12/03/2023 12:47

The cynic in me says that what they want to do is fill up the low level vacancies that are causing problems. Carers, hospitality, retail. Reforming childcare in UC will mean that people take on these roles more often (most readily available jobs after a stint of being out of work or being off as a SAHM) or will increase their hours as they are already doing these jobs.

It should be more universal.

ScruffyGiraffe · 12/03/2023 13:01

Yep. And imagine doing that with two under two as a lone parent and being tax more on the same income the couple are earning.

As I said, the whole system is ridiculous but please when you think how hard it is to manage as a couple, with 48 hours per day to earn/ be with your children as you see fit, imagine what it is like for a lone parent trying to do all of that in 24 hours per day and being taxed more than you on the same earnings!

It really is a disgrace that any family has to struggle with childcare costs so ridiculously high. It isn't impossible to fix. Other countries manage heavily subsidised childcare just fine: it's the norm across most of Europe. Max cost per child is a two or three hundred pounds per month as a norm. It should be changed for everyone, and the state would then receive far more tax that more than funds the cost! So ironic.

I suspect the reason they don't is because instead of making rational policy based on evidence of what works and will make us all better off they make policy based on optics and focus groups and tabloid headlines. They fear that the whole "I don't understand economics and I'm furious my money is being used to fund this when I don't have children" cohort will be stirred up by it because they're too stupid to realise that funding childcare properly would make everyone better off.

Just like with Brexit, nobody seems to care about the actual economics and effects. There were apparently a lot of people who said they were quite happy to be poorer?! So here we are.

If people could stop fighting over crumbs and, as a PP said, support rational policies that have been proved to work elsewhere that benefit everyone, even those without children, then things could be fixed. But they don't. So that doesn't happen.

My points about single parents demonstrate exactly this: people who aren't single parents themselves will rarely engage with the issue. Aside from the basic unfairness of them being taxed more on the same household income, it would benefit everyone if this was rectified. Productivity would increase, tax revenues would actually rise and far fewer people would end up ultimately reliant on the state and losing their earning potential (future tax revenues for us all).

The short-sightedness is depressing, and the unwillingness of many people to support policies that immediately wouldn't benefit them personally, even if in the long-term they clearly would (aside from the fairness issue!).

Ultimately if we as constituents aren't pressuring politicians for the policies we want then that will not happen. MPs want to keep their jobs. There will be an election next year. If everybody wrote to their MPs about these issues then they absolutely would be addressed, because what fills their inbox scares them and they don't want to lose their seats.

But instead of supporting each other as women - women impacted far more than men! - people do nothing, and it all continues largely as before.

LadyWindermeresOnlyFans · 12/03/2023 13:50

Thank you for jolting me out of my bubble @ScruffyGiraffewith patience and grace. I will be more inclusive in my thoughts and actions going forward. Solidarity Flowers

Nw22 · 12/03/2023 14:10

I think this is really a kick in the teeth for most working parents. People on benefits have already had a 10% increase and loads of money towards energy bills. The tories just kept hammering middle income people

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