Which is more important: affordable childcare or decent pay for child carers?

[Youdoyoubabe]

It seems that we cannot have both.... without tax bills going up massively.

I think it’s a super important job and should be paid at a level to attract intelligent and highly qualified people. Unfortunately it’s not, and can’t be. Because it has to cost less than the parents earn - otherwise they can’t afford to use it, they have to stay at home. It’s always going to be a minimum wage job, simply because parents can’t afford to pay more.

Thank you.

Yes, unfortunately, a lot of people think childcare is a piece of piss and I have been called a "glorified babysitter" on more than one occasion. These people wouldn't last 10 minutes in childcare.

The sector is crying out for workers as they can't replace staff at the rate they are losing them. And when you look at the reasons why, it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand.

The hours are very long. The job is rewarding, yes, but stressful, draining, breakdown-inducing (have had several over 15 years in childcare, and so have many colleagues). Practitioners are required to be fully qualified but not get paid any extra for having these qualifications, use their free time to keep up to date with all their mandatory training, extra training courses that aren't mandatory (I've attended 3 in the last month)but will benefit yourself and the children. Shitty holiday entitlement, no sick pay, expected to work over our ratios as there is a widespread staffing crisis.

It goes fucking on and on. We are so deflated, fed up, overworked, and underpaid.

All the nursery and childcare workers I know are fucking exhausted and burnt out at breaking point.

And don't anyone even start with "well if you don't like it then leave" because, have a look around, people ARE leaving this sector. If all of us decided we werent going to take shit this anymore and left, then who would look after your children while you work?

It's an essential job and we deserve fair pay and working conditions.

It's not an actual voucher but the idea that your child's pre-school money follows them and is the same regardless of whether you choose to use the local authority nursery, local authority childminder, private nursery, parental cooperative nursery, childminder collective, or one with specific pedagogy ie Montessori, Waldorf, Reggio Emilia etc

Do they still have the SAHM benefit? I know that nationally the policy was abandoned in 2016 - but it was popular back in the day with certain Conservative controlled councils as they paid (mostly Mums) 3,000sek per month to stay at home or 36000 per year which was less that a quarter of the 150,000-200,000 cost of a full time nursery place and take up was very low.

I know many people spread out their parental leave by taking it part-time over a longer period - getting 2-3 years by taking 3 days a week instead of 7. DH took his parental leave at one day per week until the kids were 6 and 4,

Yes, I see what you mean over the 'voucher'. My DS goes to a friskola so that's what happens with him.'

I now realise I have absolutely no idea if the SAHP benefit is still around. I just assumed it was but actually I don't have a clue.

What are the ratios in the UK out of interest ?

As for tax rates :

Under 2s - 1:3children
2 year olds - 1:4 children
3-4s - 1: 8-13 depending on staff qualification
Childminders: 6 under 8s with usually only 3 under school age

I can't say for other countries but that most definitely isn't the tax rate for Sweden. Tax rates are set by each municipality and are around 30-33% depending on where you live.

Definitely an element of the UK wants Scandinavian level of services and support but with USA level of tax.

I can kind of understand it. Currently people get paid poorly (look at the nursery worker who posted who's paid less than £10 per hour), see a large chunk disappear in tax, and feel like they get nothing back. Whereas people in Sweden are happy to pay more tax because they get paid more and they know they get more in return.

I saw on Newsnight (I think) that people pay 25% of income on childcare in the UK. In Sweden we pay 5-8% more tax and get it practically free. Plus they get a lot more tax revenue as women aren't leaving the work force because they can't afford childcare. Properly funding childcare makes economic sense.

People might pay 25% of income on childcare but they are really only pay heavily for childcare for a couple of years between mat leave ending and kids turning 3 and the 30 hours and school kicking in.

The next 8 or 9 years until they are 11/12 is much cheaper, then they're secondary aged and very little if any childcare beyond that.

We can't suddenly hike the level of income tax, as many struggle week to week.
Although I do think we should simplify the tax system. Having NI as a separate tax just seems like a pointless admin cost.

We could start by getting the super rich to pay the amount of tax they're actually supposed to before increasing it for everyone else!

But it's unlikely to happen with Sunak at the helm, given that his wife was doing that for years...

People might pay 25% of income on childcare but they are really only pay heavily for childcare for a couple of years between mat leave ending and kids turning 3 and the 30 hours and school kicking in.

Kids turning three makes very little difference to the cost because the government doesn't cover the full cost so nurseries claw it back in other ways. When my eldest turned 3 (quite a few years ago now) the nursery fees for her only dropped about 25%. When she started school the fees halved. My most expensive childcare costs were with one in nursery and two in wrap around care and I was paying more for childcare than for my mortgage for 9 years (3DC with a 5 year gap between eldest and youngest) so not exactly a short time. We only saw a big drop once the youngest started school and that's because DH and I rejigged our hours at that point so we didn't need wrap around care anymore.

When my eldest turned 3 (quite a few years ago now) the nursery fees for her only dropped about 25%.

Was that before or after kids getting 30 hours ,term time / 22 all year?

For 3 full days my nursery fees dropped to £50 a month - actually it was cheaper than 3 days after school care.

Care to elaborate which part of my post makes me an idiot? Or are you just being a gobby twat?@GobbieMaggie

We can have both, like in France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Austria, Denmark and the Netherlands.

Childcare is for social good. We need state-funded childcare. This country is facing a shortage of labour. It is better to free up parents' time so they can build up their careers and pay childcare providers well with a career progression. Parents who stay at home can also benefit from affordable childcare when they need a break.
More people working boost productivity, tax revenue, physical and mental health.
It benefits childless people too. The future population will pay taxes and fund your state pension.

If you are paying 45p tax, with council tax on top, your equivalent in the Scandinavian countries pays around the same level of tax. Still, they get much better public services, cheaper housing, cheaper fuel, and free tertiary education.

We will benefit a lot as a country if women are not forced to leave their job because they can't afford childcare.

You only raised your kids for eight years? Who took over?

Weird to see so much ‘I’ about decisions that affect your whole family. Who was the mysterious benefactor making the salary when ‘you’ took the financial hit of not working?

Why should my taxes fund bin collections when I live next to the tip so can just carry it there myself?

Because as a society we pay our taxes to the government and entrust them to use that money to improve the quality of life for all citizens.