Why are we treated/paid as glorified babysitters or less?

[Kiddi]

this is one that opens the age old question and I am sure It will upset many too.
It is an accepted fact that many parents who quite verbally want the best for their children? then find it acceptable to pay you late, or not at all, treat you with less respect than beautician, gym instructor, cleaner and pay you less!
I am not sure this is coming across right but I am sure their are many childminders who understand where I am coming from.
This is not just a rant I am actually trying to work out if it is a pay thing, a fact you work from home, or a qualification thing?
i am thinking of surveying my parents to see what level qualifications they have, and what 'status' job they have, and If they will tell me if they earn above or below, or well above minumum wage?
i am doing my studies at the mo, and just realising again that many parents often feel that a nursery is better quality care than minding, but more expensive. or that they do not realise that often a nursery may have many low level staff doing the childcare and the high level staff doing paperwork/business/managment etc.
Its just something I am curious about and I welcome any views, however extreme either way.

Have just had another thought:

When I could afford cleaner, I paid her £8.00 per hour, at same time as paying childminder £5.00 per hour.

I felt guilty about that as I valued a happy child over a clean house.

But then I got a grip and realised cleaner has to 1) travel to my house and work in my house 2) do gruesome physical work for me only, to the exclusion of all others while she's at my house and 3) doesn't get paid when my dcs are sick, or she is on holiday.

My cm, meanwhile, looks after other children at the same time and has holiday pay.

Overall, net weekly pay, my CM earned far more than my cleaner.

And both of them better off in comparison to me than they thought they were.

No reason at all why this shouldn't be the case but I do think sometimes that CMs assume the parents they are working for are a lot better off than they actually are, as someone posted earlier.

daphne, i agree with u but i wouldnt say my cm works for me, i see it more as i pay her for a service.

I pay my CM the rate she chooses to charge, £30 a day

she does a fantastic job and is very very cheap at the price

I pay her on time, pay full-pay when she is on holiday and am happy to pay when she is off sick too

I don't mess her around, she doesn't mess me around, I am fully aware she makes it possible for me to pursue my working life and i consider myself extremely lucky to have found someone I respect and trust to look after my dd

HTH

I pay my childminder what she tells me her rate is. I always pay for more hours than I use. ATM I am paying her for 8-9 and 3.30-5.30 3 days a week. Now on a Tuesday DS has football practice at 5 so DH or one of the other Dads picks him up at 4.45, he goes to art club after school on a Wednesday until 4.15 and on a Thursday has a swimming lesson at 4.30 so is picked up by DH or me at 4.15. So I am paying 3.30-5.30 and using 3.30-4.45 on Tues, 4.15-5.15 on Weds, and 3.30-4.15 on Thurs. And I always pay on time. But I am lumped into some ungrateful parents group.

olsmum - might be nit-picking here, but I can't see how/where I view my CM as someone who works for me rather than as someone who provides a service for whom I choose to pay.

Doesn't really matter anyway. I see her as important and valuable in our family life. As I did with cleaner when I could afford her services.

Wow! great, been doing my assigment all day so stopped myself looking at this thread. Right Im really happy you all replied! some of you have looked really deep, thanks.

Let me say, I love my job( and chose to stay minding once DD at school), have fantastic kids, pretty good parents with fantastic relationships( apart from one who knowingly sent her child with runs and results in me losing 3 days pay), BUT my good parents of a few years CAN often forget to pay that day, so I have to ask each payday, Are you paying me today? It may be memory but it still hurts to have to ask.
they maay forget cash that day and say sorry, will sort it out, meaning well its friday and I am in a rush so will pay you Mon! leaving me with nothing for weekend. yes I can go to cash machine but then need to arrange trip to bank monday( or tues if she forgets again) with 3 under 5's in tow and 4 steps to carry pushchair up!
Its the little things that grate, but seem like major pickiness when you have to point it out AGAIN! when everything else is good and you love the child, thats why you put up with it.
re hair dressing I did stop my assigment at 4 to get my haircut! so we cant be that badly off.

Re income. I totally agree that parents who do not qualify for tax credits can work for less than minumum wage after you deduct childcare. that was part of what started me thinking about it all.
Also I think it is worth mentioning that having been registered for,firstly 4, then 5 kids I have always worked atleast 55 hours usually 60 and sometimes 75 with weekends, and thismay be the first year I exceed £15000 gross, before tax, Ni, and my large outgoings, Ifeed kids quality food better than I charge for. I pay for all outings/swimming/activities myself as I dont feel children whose parents cant afford to pay should be excluded, and spent a fortune on training, resources etc and attend many meetings/training at weekends and evenings which I have not included in my working hours.
This really is not a rant I just wonder if its me, thinking these things or is it just a fact of childminding to feel used more often thatn you feel appreciated by parents. I have had some fantastic parents and even better kids but wonder if people think that they would be ok If their boss paid them a few days late, or bounced a cheque, or forgot to go to the bank. ( I prefer BAcs but offer parens a choice as its good to work in partnership!

Cat is sleepy. I am glad you have great childcare and you sound like a fab parent! and without sounding corny, why not tell her this week how much you appreciate her being reliable and trustworthy etc, and that is mans alot to you and your family.
My first minded parent was my most complimentary ever and it lasted over 5 years and I still see the kids, every birthday and xmas she would write a special message in the card, thanking me for being fantastic etc, corny but it means so much, especially when it comes out the blue! I often bragged to other minders how great she was, and would tell her I had so she knew how much her respect and also friendship meant and how it helped on a daily basis.

Bozza, Was not trying to lump was discussing many tales etc.
If do wonder if you are aware though that many minders charge for all 5 days whether you need them or not, as it is unlikely that they would be able to fill those few hours you do not need. many have two hour minumums before and after school, whether needed or not. So she could be asking you to pay for 4hrs * 5 days eg 20 hours at £3, = £60 per week. It may sound extreme but I now many who have low hourly rates but charge on the basis the could fill the space with a higher hours child and therefore they are doing you a favour by letting you come to them! NOt me, by the way! I do have a daily two hour minumum but only for days booked/contracted.
So you may not use her much and you do pay her what she asks for but it may nice just to tell her you are pleased you are paying a fair rate.

Bozza, Was not trying to lump was discussing many tales etc.
If do wonder if you are aware though that many minders charge for all 5 days whether you need them or not, as it is unlikely that they would be able to fill those few hours you do not need. many have two hour minumums before and after school, whether needed or not. So she could be asking you to pay for 4hrs * 5 days eg 20 hours at £3, = £60 per week. It may sound extreme but I now many who have low hourly rates but charge on the basis the could fill the space with a higher hours child and therefore they are doing you a favour by letting you come to them! NOt me, by the way! I do have a daily two hour minumum but only for days booked/contracted.
So you may not use her much and you do pay her what she asks for but it may nice just to tell her you are pleased you are paying a fair rate.

it was the last sentance of your previous post, apologies if i misunderstood the wording

Would parents pay on-time if they were offered more payment methods? Such as, setting up a standing order, credit/debit cards (eg. via paypal), that sort of thing.

Could payment issues be to do with how the parents themselves are paid? For example, some may be paid weekly, others monthly. Some may be claiming tax credits, or having some other funding such as from a college.

I pay my childminder the going rate, I think, which at £5 per hour per child all the year around regardless of whether I recieve a service or not. I think it's a bit expensive, but she is nice and the children are happy. I suspect that if I didn't pay her cash I mightn't feel so touchy about it if I didn't pay cash (especially handing over large chunks of cash at the start of the holidays and saying see you in two weeks then, or whatever the case might be). But then I just have a couple of hours after school for four days a week, so I guess it doesn't seem that big a deal. If I was talking babies then it would be another matter, but my two are 7 and 8, and not very difficult to entertain. Maybe I feel this way because before we used a childminder we had a nanny (pre school), and coming home to a tidy house and children ready for a nice story and bed was just fantastic and felt worth every penny, whereas picking up from the childminder means a tram ride home, followed by homework, bath etc. So the nanny was a luxury and the childminder rather less so, I guess. The nursery came in between, but I think it was the cheapest option, and as it was literally over the road, is wasn't much stress either. However I still try my hardest to be on time and have the money on the right day etc - that's just good manners really (and I'm sure the contract says I have to!).

I cant possibly have more methods, I hate having cash or cheques as I have to go to the bank, but at least I cant spend cheques before they get to the bank.
I did think part of the prob was too many mehtods, durations etc. but I if parents want same amount every week or 4 weeks or month, I calculate whole bill for the year and divide by the applicable amount. I AM very helpful, but it came to light one new year when I checked statments of special business account to find have not been paid for 5 weeks by a parent that meant to pay weekly by STO! so now had to accept cash but it still drives me mad!
of course I have other parents who have paid for years by bank but on one occasion after a change she realised it was not going out so came round on a sunday afternoon and put exact amount down to last penny thru door in envelope as it was the 1st of the month EVEN tho she was seeing me first thing monday. That made me feel special.
people forgetting cheque books in morning of bank trip day drives me batty too.keep moving banking day to try to plan round them but then by time I get to bank iwith cheques and wait for them to clear ( or bounce) can be a fortnight before I actually get paid.
I am sure its time for yet another change to rules but with so many Ofsted changes, network, rules, contract due, parents changing hours right after new contracts etc, I feel I am harrassing parents by asking them to change, read, sign etc etc etc

kiddi-I'm sure it must be a nightmare when you don't get paid on time. And we all like to be appreciated, that's for sure-

actually on that note have been trying to think of what to get my CM for Xmas-any ideas? what would you like to get? would you be happy with nice chocs/smellies etc?

I think it might be the informality of the arrangements that make people pay late. If you have an informal arrangement, people adapt their mental outlook to an informal one. Much the best bet is a direct debit/ standing order, so then it can't get paid late, but I know that's not possible for some people. The DD / SO option also means there's no ambiguity about sickness etc. - it gets paid automatically so people don't think they've got an opt out if their child doesn't go because of sickness or whatever.

I give all my parents a invoice on the 20th of the month, all my parents pay monthly, which is to be paid by 9.00 on the first of the month (the time is so that the after school people dont bring it in the afternoon which means to trips to the bank.

I'm lucky that they all pay by cheque and usually give it to me on the 31st which means I can put it in the banks night safe after the children have gone home.

At Christmas I ask for a post dated cheque on the last working day before Christmas, s alot dont come back till about the 4th or later.

It is in my contracts to be paid by then, when people come for a interview I go through payment methods with them, the only way I dont like being paid is by bacs as I've found it can take up to 5 working days to go through, and parents cant pay it earlier than their pay day.

I also have a late payment charge of £5.00 per day which I have never had to charge, although all parents sign on the contract that I can charge it.

I do think that if you are very business like about it, you dont have any problems.

I have a mortgage to pay like everybody else and Im sorry I cannot understand anybody paying late, as others say YOU WOULD NOT LIKE TO BE PAID LATE, so why should we?

saying that all my parents (Military) are going over to the voucher system in January, which will be paid 5-10 days after they are paid, the parents will pay the difference on the first and I will have to wait for the voucher money, which to be honest is a pain, I have had to change standing order dates with my bank, but I knew that when i said I would accept vouchers.

Why the Voucher companies cannot pay on the parents pay day is beyond me tho.

As an unhappy former user of a childminder I admit that I'm probably now negatively biased. I won't go into the details but I had a disagreement with my cm resulting in me having to give notice see this thread for more details if interested. www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=2300&threadid=393964#8017740

I gave a month's notice and brought ds to her for a couple of days at the beginning of the month as I'd already paid her but was so upset by her behaviour towards me on both occasions (refusal to speak to me) that I decided not to use her again - despite having paid her for the month.

In my time with my cm I did forget to pay her a couple of times but only because she INSISTED on being paid in cash on a weekly basis and I basically have so much going on each week I just plain forgot a couple of times. I wanted to pay her by direct debit on a monthly basis in advance so that I could also use vouchers as part payment as this was much easier for me but had to persuade her over a long period of time as well as offering to pay her £200 as a one-off payment for the 'inconvenience' of filling in a few forms and setting up the DD.

I also paid her for 4 days a week for a year when I only used 3 days most weeks as I wanted the flexibility of which days I used her and also paid 8-6.30pm but except for 1-2 times in the 2 years ds went 8.15-6pm. She was thus was overpaid by 45mins almost every day for the whole time I she had ds yet on the 2 occasions I turned up at 7.55am it was made very clear to me that I only paid from 8am !!

I thought we had quite a good relationship at the time but as my thread link shows she put our entire family in an incredibly difficult situation by her behaviour.

As all my holidays for the year were gone (bar 1-2 days) I had to take unpaid leave to look for alternative care. I eventually found a nursery I liked but it don't have the hours available I needed so I was forced to take more unpaid leave between now and xmas to cover this as well.

I had paid her a month in advance and was unable to use her as she was so unpleasant to me after I gave notice and I was worried what she would be like with ds. On top of this I also had to pay a month of nursery fees at the same time as I took my unpaid leave. That financial hit to us just before xmas is I feel is more than enough pay back for the couple of occasions I paid my cm a day late.

The very worst thing was her refusal to say goodbye to ds and to tell the other cildren why he was leaving and have a 'goodbye' tea or party as she usually did with other children who left. Ds was absolutely devasted and it took almost 2 months for him to stop crying and clinging every time I left the room.

Obviously he had attached to cm (he was her from 9 month old - 3 yers old) and the abrupt ending to their relationship (her choice not mine as I wanted him to go to her a few times during the notice period and for her and I to manage the seperation in a gentle way) was borderline emotional abuse on her part as far as I am concerned.

I personally would never use a cm again as I would never want to be in the situation she placed me and particularly my ds in again.

As for being well off or not, my childminder lives in a nice 3 bedroom house with a garden and had a reasonably nice car. I live in a poky 2 bedroom flat and drive a nissan micra. We certainly don't have more money than she has - that is for certain!

My dh works from home with young children teaching musiuc. He charges £23 per hour.

The difference is not that parents value music teaching more than childcare, (or the services of a hairdresser/beutician etc.but that they only pay for half an hour to an hour at a time per week (and once every month or so in the latter cases. Plus they take on one client at a time.

I pay £28 per day for nursery for ds which works out a bit cheaper than a local childminder would. I do not pay for bank holidays but do pay for when we are away. The nursery provides a service inthe same way as a childminder would. I do not consider them to be an employee or working for me and I wouldn;t a childminder or a music teacher, I consider it a service that I pay for.

oh shoshalite I like you. Yes thinks thats the way I may go again if my newsletter reminder does not work. Its all meant to be about working in partnership with parents and giving them options that work for them too, but then Ofsted dont get paid by the parents or have to juggle money if someone bounces a cheq or SO does not clear.

Little Bella if you reread my 9.19 post its was the delay with problems from uncleared SO that lead me back to the cash option. Also bounced cheques which I do pass on the fee for but its the hassle.
Everything is formal and EVERY pound goes through my books, I do not ask for cash so I can declare less. I do NOT really want cash.
Actually yes you are right it my fault I have agreed to too many changes, but then like shoshalite I accepted voucher , I have college students where funding pays me, goverment where it comes once a term, and holiday contracts that finish at irregular times so theire has to be in arrears.
i am gonna stop whining now. And hope someone wakes up to play with me! THe fun part of my job!

forgive me if i am wrong - dont cms charge on average £5 per hr? so if a cm has 4 children they are getting £20 an hr?

sorry forgot to reply to cat is sleepy.
If you chilminder likes those things then great, but a special message in a card may mean as much if not more.

np - yes. My cm was earning £13.50 an hour for the 3 FT children she looked after.

I think that is not great money and looking after 3 small children is incredibly hard work but it is not absolutley terrible money.

I know my dh was paid £20 an hour when he was a lecturer a few years ago but that was for contact time and when you are a new lecturer 1 hr of contact time is probably 3-4 hours of work (preparation and marking etc.) so he was being paid less than £7.00 an hour.

lazycow - that is more that most nurses get. nurses who may be responsible for up to 25 patients.

its bloody great money in my book.

nailpolish I wish its £3.25 per hour here, and that in inclusive of everything, meals, snacks, outings, in fact everything but nappies!