Is this acceptable ? Numbers / supervision

[EezyOozy]

Hi,

I have concerns about our childminder. I’ll try to be as brief as possible but there is a lot of information... I’d really appreciate some perspective please as I can be an anxious parent. The CM has helped us out a lot in the past (eg taking DC1 when I was in labour with DC2) and is very very convenient to get to, but my concerns recently I think are outweighIng the plus points...

Concerns include:
-CM always over numbers. Last week had 1x7mo, 3x 2yo,1x 3yo and 1x4yo at each pick up.
-DC2 starting soon (will be 11m) and CM will have all above children on one of the days (poss not the 4yo)
-Several times recently I’ve worried that children are not being properly supervised. I won’t list all examples but the WORST one was when I picked up DC1 (16mo at the time) and CM was throwing a party for ex-mindees and their parents. Loads of people in house , couldn’t find CM for ages (she was in garden) and found my DC climbing and bouncing around front room clutching a punnet of whole grapes and stuffing them into her mouth. (I did raise this with CM). There are other more minor examples.

I can provide more detail if needed -how does this all sound so far? I’ve made a point of trying to be factual.

Thanks so much

In addition to the ratio info above, my understanding is that you can’t have more than one child under 12 months unless exceptional circumstances I.e twins. So if she is having your 11 month old & a 7 month old I don’t think that would be allowed although presumably it won’t be for long due to your child’s ages.
The ratio responses above are interesting. As a cm myself I tend to stick to the 3 under 5yo rule for my own sanity. It’s hard work. I couldn’t cope with those numbers your cm does. I know there is some flexibility in the rule for continuity of care but having 6 every day does seem a lot From what I’ve read, On forums ofsted inspectors seem to have differing opinions on how many under 6 you should have but the general theme is 4 on occasion is fine so she could be making things tricky for herself. All you can do is go with your.

Strictly - I agree. 3 children is generally more than enough for one person. I have had 4 on my own occasionally when I had siblings. Working with my husband now, 7 between 2 of us is very manageable. It also depends on their ages.

Ofsted will observe a childminder for 3-4 hours and if they are not giving all the children a good environment they will be told they can't have that many (if it's over 3 under 5).

Hi OP. I am a childminder and I agree with you, none of that sounds OK.
She sounds very lax and I would be concerned what goes on when people aren't around.

Also pretty sure you can't just decide how many children you can look after. I'm in Scotland and if we want to have anymore that 3 under 5's we need to apply for a variation with the care inspectorate which costs a fortune. I can't agine she is getting permission to do this all the time.

I’ve just re-read this & when your child starts she will have 7 under the age of 6 at some times is that right? That’s definitely not okay unless the 4 year old is in full time school and counts as an over 5?

Still even if she is classed as over 5 it’s still too much imo really x

@Thestrangestthing.
I England you no longer need to ask for a variation this changed with the last EYFS and has been clarified on numerous occasions....you dont need permission for overnight care either.
Most do not agree to it as a more than occasional thing....say to help family out for emergency or if they have to work additional days. You can never go over 6 under 8 so the 7 under 5 is a definite no.

She can't have 2 under 1 on her own (apart from twins which is obviously not the case here).

Look for someone else.

And on the going over ratio, my assistant and I often have 7 under 5. With naps and meals it's really good with a bunch of 2 1/2 + children. No way I'd do it with a group younger, they wouldn't get the care they need and deserve.

@jannier you’re right. I got myself confused. Even if the 4 year old is in full time education they are still under 6 so would be over ratios.
I was thinking about the under 5 rule x

I mean under 8yo not 6!

I think they can self vary to have 2 under 1s. My childminder has 2 under 1s (including my daughter). She was recently inspected by OFSTED on a day both kids were there and came out as ‘good’ so it must be ok. It won’t be for long as they will turn one soon. Also she never has more than 3 under 5s, often only 2 kids at a time in fact.

What the OP describes is madness. I’d not go back to work if that was the only option.

She's over her numbers. She can have 3 under 5,( only 1 baby under 1 though)and 3 aged5 to 8. Never allowed more than 6 under 8.
Ofsted will allow 4 under 5 if it's continuity of care eg a change of hours or a sibling but not for new business. However, Ofsted will definitely frown on having 5 under 5!
Not only that, if she's over her numbers it could affect her insurance.
And how the hell would she get them all out if there was a fire??

You might be surprised at the insurance numbers these days. Mine says 12 alone and 18 with a named co-minder.

Of course, there are other restrictions from Ofsted (ratios, space, ages), but insurance is unlikely to be an issue.

@looselegs.
Ofsted have confirmed that you could actually have up to 6 under 5 .....not that it's good or ideal of course....the circumstances too are not limited to the ones you describe but they say they are examples....
A qualified teacher in a nursery could have 1 to 13 yet a cm with the same qualifications cant .
Ad I said earlier you do have to prove you can not only provide basic care and safety but meet all needs including learning goals.

@Jennifer the problems arise when Ofsted inspectors use their own interpretation of what it says in the EYFS. It doesn't say you can't have more than 3 under 5 as new business- but it doesn't say you can either, and it doesn't use it as an example. It's a very grey area, and I have read recently of a couple of childminders who have been warned about having 4 whilst being inspected.

The self-variation thing is a nightmare because Ofsted are terribly inconsistent with it. Put bluntly, a childminder wishing to do a variation has to stick their neck out and gamble on what their next inspector will be like. The inspectors don’t seem to follow any set criteria on this point, so it comes down to their personal taste.

In spite of the regulations, I’ve heard of inspectors quite blatantly announcing things like "I don’t approve of variations" or "no one can possibly care for four children" or "it’s three for a reason and that’s all I allow."

Self variation replaced the old system where a childminder had to submit a formal application, complete with risk assessment, resource allocation, parental consent, etc. Ofsted then approved or denied it, and everything was clear cut. That system was scrapped largely due to pressure from parents' groups who disliked the delay involved in making an application.

Childminders can come under severe pressure from parents to take on "just one more". One I support current has three of her clients on maternity, all wanting her to take "just one more" very soon, which will push her over the standard ratios unless she uses a variation. Each considers themselves a good customer, deserving of loyalty, and will be offended if she doesn’t create a space for their respective new arrivals.

*That system was scrapped largely due to pressure from parents' groups who disliked the delay involved in making an application.

Childminders can come under severe pressure from parents to take on "just one more".*

This is annoying when you end up faces with my situation . Thanks for all your helpful info and clarity x

The old system was so slow you used to apply for a variation on twins under 1 by the time it came through the parent was out of work forced to use a nursery or the babies were over 1. So you can understand it.....the real pressure was government wanting to give 30 hours to 3 year olds without paying the going rate forcing closures.

Hi all, just an update. Had a chat with CM and it was clear that my children would be 2 of 7 on one day, 2 of 6 on the other. 2 babies on each of these days.

Have applied for a formal career break from work (there is a scheme) and removed toddler from CM. Local nurseries all full and have put me on waiting lists (but I need two spaces so decided not to hold out hope). I’ve decided to have career break until one is in reception and one is at preschool (at same school), so just over 2.5 years. Eldest will start preschool part time when she’s 3. I feel like a huge weight off my mind. Very sad about the way things have turned out but at least I have peace of mind. Thanks for all your advice x

Due back to work v soon so had to make a decision. No fantastic outcome but the only one I can live with under the circumstances. I couldn’t live with myself if something happened and I’d knowingly left my tiny children in that set up :-(

I'm glad you've found a solution that works for you. Hopefully work will back your decision.

Hi OP. Just read your update. Does that mean she'll have 6/7 under 5 year olds?

I think she's taking the piss big time. G am a childminder and work within my quotas. Most of us do so I think you've had a bad experience. No one could look after that many young children properly and deliver the EYFS and ensure all their development needs are met.

You've done the right thing pulling your child from her setting.

Yes - there would have been a total of 7 on one day and a total of 6 on the other. Thanks for your kind words zx

What worries me about this is that one of the 7kids could easily hurt themselves whilst she is busy with the others. I do know Childminder’s who go over by one, for maybe short periods of time, but the children are safe and CM is in control, and nothing is comprised.