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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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AIBU:Should I pay my CM even though I gave her sufficient notice?

100 replies

Needadvice2018 · 05/09/2018 15:03

Hello,
I’ve changed my name just incase my CM sees.

Basically, my CM had my daughter through out term time since last September. I pay her a month in advance. I told her in July that I no longer needed her to look after my child as she would be going to nursery from September.
I assumed this would be sufficient notice as it’s 6 weeks plus. She’s now saying that as my child only does term time she needed 4 weeks notice during term time and I need to pay for September :/
My child is only contracted for term time but I assumed the 4 weeks notice wouldn’t need to be during term time. She’s now threatening to add late fees on top of what I owe her!
Should I pay her for September even though she knew 6 weeks ago she wouldn’t have my child?

OP posts:
1CantPickAName · 07/09/2018 20:15

At most you would owe her two weeks money as you paid for the whole of July and paid for that. You have her 6 weeks notice but had paid for the two weeks after you gave her notice, before the 4 weeks in August, if you see what I mean?

Anyway, her contract is not clear on the notice period and she would need to prove that your actions were detrimental to her income or business. If she fills your child’s space then no loss of income to her so no legal left to stand on for her.

jannier · 07/09/2018 20:56

The pacey contract has it on the back and is part of the contract. The Contracts are updated but the clause is still there which is why the OP should take proper legal advice not rely on what they are told on forums. Only a legal team can read the contract and give an opinion.

A child can easily carry on walking with out a shoe I've seen it many times over the years and had to run up behind parents. Its similar to how they can have shoes that are on wrong feet and ones that are too small, lost cunt of the number of times parents have been mortified by children in shoe for to small for them and child hasn't said even 8 and 9 year olds. When your walking in town wit even one or two children you don't tend to look at their feet, Have you ever had someone tread on your heel and pull a shoe off? I know I have.

ItsNiceItsDifferentItsUnusual · 07/09/2018 21:02

My son goes to nursery term time only and his notice period must be within term time, ie holiday time does not count towards the overall notice period. I can understand why they do this, otherwise parents would time their notice period so as to stop paying almost immediately.

However your childminder should have stated it explicitly in her contract. But I don't think she's necessarily trying it on, these could genuinely be her terms and she's not construed them properly.

Slimtimeagain · 07/09/2018 22:02

I would love to know the outcome of this.
She was properly trying it on and I hope you haven't paid her any money. 6 weeks is more than enough!

Needadvice2018 · 07/09/2018 22:05

@jannier sorry I'm a bit confused by your comment. PACEY is on the back of what?
In order for something to be contractually binding it must be implemented into the contract. That way both parties are fully aware of what they are signing up to and there's no deception. You cannot implement
something which is unknown to the other party.
She hasn't used a PACEY contract so she can not rely on them.
Furthermore, the clause you posted was ambiguous and unclear so I doubt it'd be able to be used.

My child would've said something though. She's always said her feet hurt when her shoes are too small or when someone stands on the back of them as she is particularly fussy about that. My CM should've been paying attention to all children in her care considering that's her job role.

OP posts:
Needadvice2018 · 07/09/2018 22:12

@Slimtimeagain no I've definitely not haha! She's not replied since I messaged her the other day stating her contract should've explicitly stated term time notice needed to be given!
I received an invoice through the post from her yesterday for September though. First class stamp... invoice date was 19th August. Literally took her 3 weeks to get it out.

OP posts:
itsaboojum · 08/09/2018 10:52

To clarify, I think the comments about pacey contracts is a tangent which developed as part of the broader discussion, rather than being directly applicable to the OP's situation.

I absolutely agree that you should take proper legal advice, and not rely on replies from an online forum. Even if you have a law degree, you still need the neutral opinion of a disinterested solicitor,as you are 'involved'.

The truth is, you'll get a lot of duff advice based on people's anecdotal experience, rather than a proper legal position based on what's likely if a case goes all the way to court. Some childcare providers genuine believe they are in the right simply because some parents cave in the moment they get a letter from a legal department. OTOH some parents believe they are right because a CM caved in under the threat of malicious attacks on their reputation and character, which could utterly ruin their livelihood.

I would maintain that the CM is responsible for the loss of the shoe. The whole point of the role is that they are responsible for the child, and whatever the child does. You can't have it both ways: you take the money for taking responsibility. That said, the value of the shoes is practically negligible.

Also worth pointing out that the contracted level of late payment charge is excessive, and therefore likely to be ruled inapplicable by a court. Contrary to what many people think, you can't enforce something just because it's in a signed contract. If it's unreasonable, a court will throw it out.

The real underlying problem is that childcare fees are too low to allow for probable costs, including the loss of property, and CMs are doing parents a favour over term-time only arrangements, but at some cost to their own financial sustainability.

jannier · 09/09/2018 12:07

My point about Pacey contracts came up before the op said what contracts were used. Pacey contacts are several pages long and have notes on the back which are referenced from the front. The part about notices including how long a notice period is required is on the back of one of the pages and has to be filled in.
The purpose is to stop term time only contracts delaying giving notice until the end of term which for some strange reason people seem to do including the op who if she gave her notice mid July would have been the end of term so effectively no notice at all. Why would you deliberately delay someone else looking for work as soon as possible other than being in considerate?
If you go away every holiday you are not available to look for childcare so the contract is designed so that you are not penalised by being term time only similarly if by doing you the favour of being term time only the minder has to go out to work or is actually away her self she is not penalised by you not giving notice until the end of term and her not being their to look for alternative work. during a long holiday parents mainly only seek new childcare in the last week or even once term starts when they go back to work which means a period of term time unpaid otherwise. Why did the op not give notice 4 weeks before the end of term?
The shoe thing is petty or is the op really saying her child was dragged along screaming my shoes my shoe and the minder deliberately made her walk bare foot. If she really thought this then you would take action then. Children loose things we all loose things form time to time it does not mean the child hasn't been cared for properly.

Tanith · 10/09/2018 14:45

I think you can disregard what PACEY say in this instance: it's clearly not a PACEY contract and people are only mentioning it because that's more than likely where the holiday clause originates.

I'm guessing this childminder used the PACEY contracts at first (like many of us) and became used to working with the holiday clause, then decided to write her own and forgot to include it.
I believe the original reason for the clause was so that a term-time contracted childminder would not have to cut into his or her holiday time, trying to fill the place of a child for whom notice was given right at the end of term.
In some cases, those childminders would be away, or would have other jobs, making it impossible for interviews to take place until the following term. Childminders who do work during the holidays are often far busier than during the term time and this makes visits more problematic.

However, all that's beside the point Smile. From the contract you've copied here, there is no holiday clause and you therefore owe nothing. Check carefully that it isn't mentioned elsewhere on the contract, though.

HSMMaCM · 10/09/2018 16:44

What Tanith said. The CM is probably unaware that by changing her contracts,she has effectively changed her terms and conditions. This is why I say to any parents (and other CMs) to make sure they read and understand the contract.

Needadvice2018 · 10/09/2018 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pollypocket090 · 10/09/2018 19:27

It doesn't matter if she did tell you in person or not, or whether it was on her old contract or not- the contract you signed did not specify and therefore I would not pay.

Witchofwisteria · 10/09/2018 19:31

Just don't pay her, the worst she could do is take it to small claims, which would be more cost to her than what she can gain in fees.

Also the poor word of mouth would be damaging enough- school mum's talk.

She sounds like she is having you on if you have explained in detail your plans.

ItsNiceItsDifferentItsUnusual · 10/09/2018 19:38

I don't really think it's on to include her business name in your images.

Needadvice2018 · 10/09/2018 19:40

@ItsNiceItsDifferentItsUnusual just realised that Blush
I'd made such an effort to get rid of every other mention that I didn't even notice I'd not gotten rid of that bit!

OP posts:
ProudThrilledHappy · 10/09/2018 19:50

Wow she’s trying to charge £12 a day late fee on top? She really is taking the piss now

Needadvice2018 · 10/09/2018 19:55

@ProudThrilledHappy yeah it's pretty steep! As far as I'm aware she'd be unable to enforce them though due to how much it would end up being (if we actually went to court it'd be in the £1,000s). There's no way in hell that would be a reasonable amount to request that someone pay especially as it's in dispute over what the contract actually states and I'm not just withholding the money for some stupid reason!

OP posts:
Flameless · 10/09/2018 20:32

OP I've reported your post that includes the photo of the letter as your details and daughter's name are visible. Thought it best to get it removed x

LilyMumsnet · 10/09/2018 20:33

OP, we have withdrawn your recent post as it included identifying information. We've sent you an email, too. Flowers

itsaboojum · 11/09/2018 07:42

It’s unlikely to cost the CM anything to go through the small claims process. This is almost certainly covered by her professional insurance package. In many cases, the whole thing is handed over to an in-house legal department, leaving the CM with nothing to do but await the outcome.

Occasionally the insurer will simply pay out, which is one reason why people sometimes think they've won a case when it was never even tested in court.

The OP might find she has some legal expenses cover within her own domestic insurance policy.

itsaboojum · 11/09/2018 07:54

About 8-10% is generally accepted as a 'reasonable' level of late payment penalty. A court would almost certainly throw out this CM's 50% charge.

If the entire contract follows the pattern of the little we’ve seen, then it’s a total botched job which could be thrown out by a court lock, tick and barrel.

Needadvice2018 · 11/09/2018 17:37

I'll repost the letter (with everything fully crossed out now). She's basically threatening me with late fees and court now!

AIBU:Should I pay my CM even though I gave her sufficient notice?
AIBU:Should I pay my CM even though I gave her sufficient notice?
OP posts:
HSMMaCM · 12/09/2018 07:44

This is why we have legal insurance and they will have offered advice for her to do this. However, they will be assuming she's using a standard childminding contract.

jannier · 12/09/2018 08:05

itsaboojum - the reasonableness test comes into play though, if it can be reasonably argued that by failing to pay the op forces the cm to incur costs like overdraft fees the court may uphold the amount charged.

It is always safer to not rely on opinion from laymen but to get legal advice yet the op doesn't seen to want to do this.

jannier · 12/09/2018 08:08

HSMMaCM - if she has contacted her insurance for advice they will have looked at her contract before advising her, whilst Pacey insist on their own contract MM and others don't and are happy to provide a legal team for any contract they look at it and assess the likelihood of it being successful.