Is net £10-12p/h really the going rate for a nanny in London? How do most people afford it?

[Lalababy]

I am on maternity leave and heading back to work when my DS2 turns 6months - and have now started to advertise for a nanny. When I went back to work with my first DS I sent him to daycare. However, this time I though a nanny might make more sense as I have 2 children - one of whom is only 6 months and the older one goes to nursery anyway. However, it seems that all the replies have said they want between £10-£12net. I get paid £60k a year - if I pay a nanny net £10ph from my take-home pay - I barely would have £50 in my pocket. Yet I see lots of people who live around me who have a nanny. Am i missing something or am I the most underpaid person in London!!!

There are two separate issues here.

1. Is it fair that parents pay childcare costs out of their net income? Should the government do more to help parents with childcare costs?

1. Are child carers earning too much?

It really annoys me when these issues get confused. I understand that childcare is extremely expensive and I agree that something should be done about that. BUT it is not underpaying your child's carer. Do you really think someone taking sole responsibility for your child, for nearly all their waking hours should be paid the same as the person scanning your frozen peas in Tesco?! If you cannot afford a nanny then you cannot have one. It is that simple. If you want underpaid childcare, use a nursery. If you cannot afford two lots of nursery fees then you should not have had two children. It is not up to child carers to take a wage cut to subsidise people who have children they cannot afford. Nannying is not a charitable endeavour.

She can't "barely afford to work" though can she? It's not costing her 60grand in childcare!!

This! Dear god. Wake up and smell the coffee! I'm paying £100 a day for 2 children in nursery and trust me..all of my wages go on childcare plus some of husbands.

outraged your post is spot on, child carers deserve every penny they get. I do think a bigger tax break would be appropriate, especially given a chauffeur and lots of other spurious expenses are tax deductible.

Most people don't have a nanny. Childminders and using the 15 (soon 30) free hours for your eldest would be cheaper.

This is the going rate
I pay. 13 quid an hour for nursery or 100 pounds per day
Friends afford it by using nanny share. Or unqualified people.

100 pounds a day for nursery!! I pay £38 a day (in a big city, just not London). Jeezy creezy.

Are nannies in Lond paid £3.100 a month gross. That is £36K per year. That seems very high indeed. But a lot of people do barely break even in pre school childcare. And work to keep their jobs and careers going. Not sure I agree with government funding for people on £60K a year.

In the 'olden days' we got no help with childcare costs.

In 1992 I had my second child and she had obvious SEN. I had just qualified as a nurse and I needed to get back to work and keep my career on track.

We had a nanny - it cost me ALL of my wages. I sucked it up and got on with it.

I knew it wouldn't be forever and I was being a good role model for my young daughters ( not saying SAHM is a bad role model - things were different then)

I am now a cm and I barely get minimum wage but I get all the perks of being self employed. I have thought about being a nanny and I would command a good wage to reflect my experience and qualifications (graduate child educator) - my job is as important as anyone else's so why should I not get a wage to reflect this?

I would say it is a little lower. Ask amongst your friends for what they actually pay. I found online forums not that helpful as to guidance as to what people pay - I never could decide whether it was because there were lots of nannies on them, or because the people who posted paid more, or that people weren't honest about their financial arrangements. Who knows. I found it best to ask people individually as to what they pay and what their arrangements are, and then I at least feel that I have an honest answer! I also ask my nanny as part of her appraisal. I would say that in outer London (not Chelsea/Westminster etc, but most other places) people agree a gross rate in their contract, but with the broad intention of a nanny having a net rate of £9-11ph which works out gross between £10-£13.50 depending on experience etc. The higher levels are paid by people looking for 5 (or in some cases I know, 6) days childcare a week, on long days, with more experienced nannies. You also don't say whether you are looking for FT or PT nannies or what your other arrangements are. Most people I know with nannies use FT nannies and a payroll service. But I do know a few people (mainly in the creative industries) who use a PT nanny on a self-employed basis successfully sometimes with another family as well. That may or may not work out more cheaply for you (they pay a bit more and you have to have flexibility yourself so it depends what your job is). Those that I know who do this have nannies who actively combine nannying with flexible careers (or main desired careers - not always the same thing!) - like actresses, artists or entrepreneurs. They tend to work for similarly freelance friends with a lot of flexibility themselves. I know one family for example who have a brilliant relationship with their PT actress nanny, they box and cox what seems to me like a lot with each other, around her making auditions in particular, but the rest of the time it works OK, their nanny is a really dynamic creative person. Good luck.

Here is nannynick's calculation of how much it costs to employ a nanny at 10 pph gross. It comes out at £34,433 (though that includes £2,000 for mileage - the OP in London could get away with a few hundred on an Oyster for bus fares but she'd have to pay way more per hour).

I agree that underpaying childcarers isn't the right approach, but per hour comparisons with piece workers like dog walkers or domestic cleaners are very misleading because they work very short shifts normally with travel between jobs, they should be paying their own tax and NI, and they generally don't get holiday or sick pay.

Anyway OP, the moral has to be that you need to find an OFSTED registered nanny to claim your childcare tax refund, because that 4,000 per annum rebate means you will be doubling your take home pay.

Well, I have said this before and I will say it again.

These hourly net wages reflect that many people are not fully declaring their nanny's income or the nannies are on some self-employed wheeze. So they are effectively gross rates.

I do not believe for a moment that all the families paying 12 net p/h are declaring every penny to HMRC.

If they actually clamped down on this, the net rates would fall.

I think I agree Vienna.

It's grim because it drives up the going rate for people who do do it by the book, and the nannies who go off the record can get screwed over by their lack of NI contributions later on.

One of the many advantages of the new tax break scheme is that it could level the playing fields a bit and incentivise more families to do things legally.

Offer a salary you can afford. Offer a gross salary. Nannies do not always earn £10/12 nett. They may earn £13 gross

What is the diff between nursery and a nanny

Yes you may go to work for £300 a month by the time you've paid childcare - but that's not forever - few years both will be at school and then cheaper

In the meantime you carry on with your career and earn a little - or you give up and be a sahm and earn nothing

Salary should between you and hubby

And yes I agree all childcare costs should be deducted from the gross salary and then taxed on the rest

I hate it when people say 'how
Much do you think the peope caring for your precisiu children should be paid?' In an angry tone.
Nurses and carers and many other professions don't sarn as much as many nannies.
OP, I advertised on gumtree and my "nanny" is 25, lovely, has worked in a nursery for three years and works for less than £10ph net! It can be done. I earn less than £35,000 in central London so can only just afford her. But I treat her well and she's happy

Ps sorry for typos.
Silly phone

Well - I have resolved my childcare issue. The manager at my son's daycare recommended a nursery worker who was looking to move into a nanny role. My new nanny seems lovely, she has 4 years experience in a nursery, I have been able to offer her what I can afford and which is actually more that what she asked for and definately less than £10net. Everything is above board - as an accountant fortunately I can sort the taxes out myself. She starts monday and I have a couple of weeks before I head back to work.

Lala - fantastic news. Well done.

Congratulations Lala.

£60,000 is not a low salary, even for London. Also, your husband earns too. I'm not sure why you think you are hard done by, but at the same time are quibbling about how much to pay your nanny - the person who will become one of the most important people in your life. Doesn't your nanny live in London too? How does SHE manage? Probably by living in a grotty houseshare. Nannies, like swimming pools and sports cars, are a luxury not a necessity. There's nothing wrong with having one, but it isn't an entitlement for every working mother. If you can't afford a nanny, then don't have one and use a childminder, or get a nanny share.

It is if you read Mumsnet. It's crippling regardless of whether you use a nanny or a nursery

Kudos to Jellybeans for an eloquent summary.