Mature Lady Required

[nannynick]

Yesterday I came across an advert from a nanny agency in which it said:

Mature Lady Required

I contacted the agency and the advert was quickly amended. So well done to the agency concerned for quickly responding to a complaint but should it have happened in the first place?

Anyone can run a nanny agency. No training required. They don't need to know the Non-Broadcast CAP Code, The Equality Act (2010) or any other legislation. They certainly should know about all legislation and codes of conduct that apply to what they are doing but many seem to ignore, forget, or feel they can advertise for whatever the client wants.

Have you come across job listings (adverts) which may breach Equality legislation or advertising standards?

What things have you seen - a specific nationality wanted? A specific gender? Applicants only of certain age, or age range? Wanting someone thin?

Can't say I have seen one specifically saying they want someone White, or Black - that sort of thing would generate complaints. Yet discrimination on grounds of age is something that is happening but do people complain? Should we complain more?

As a nanny entering their 40's I may be considered to be 'mature' but what about those nannies just starting out in their career, if parents only want an older nanny, then what chance to those younger nannies have?

I also worked for another family that said they only wanted fit nannies, but never stated that on the advert. They just decided at the interview whether the nanny was fit enough to fit into their sporty lifestyle or not.

You need to be more specific nanny nick, whose codes of conduct, which advertising standards?

I agree Nannynick.
In small business -including parents hiring nannies- the possibility of pregnancy is offten in the employer's mind. It is imo a feminist issue.

CAP non-broadcast code
REC code of conduct
ANA professional code of conduct

Is there relevant case law, such as Neal v Watts (anyone have access to the full judgement?) and does the passage of time change anything with regard to such judgements?

Is being of a certain age ever a General Occupation Qualification?

Is being of the same gender as the child (under 8) a GOQ for a nanny? If so then why do female nannies care for boys?

I assumed nick was saying About ad as says wants female not the age iyswim

Guess ads need to say experienced rather then mature

When I worked with a family some years ago, The employer had a friend who had 2 children . the friend was in her late 30s and died suddenly of a freak illness. The husband did not think it would be a good idea to hire a nanny of a similar age to their mother and so asked only to see nannies who were 20/25. should this parent have been forced to go against what he thought was best for his children for a point of political correctness?

Nannies are one of the few jobs where parents can have some say in what they would like for their children and barring outright bigotry I believe that to be right.

Oh and by the way Artandco I can assure you that this very mature nanny is perfectly capable of running around after small children and have met a few young nannies who are worn out after a few hours. So don't be so judgmental! age doesn't automatically make you infirm and youth doesn't always equate with being fit.

Sunshine - no age doesn't automatically mean unfit. However older people do get older quicker. The family I mentioned at the time of looking for nanny had 3 year old, 1 year old, and newborn triplets. They did see a nanny who was 61. However didn't hire as wanted to hire a nanny for potentially all childrens childhood. It's likely that nanny would want to retire by the time the youngest started school. As it was they hired a nanny who was 35. The triplets are now 11 and they have the same nanny

Point taken but unfortunately it didn't come across that way.

Blondes - you are right that the word Lady is what got my attention but it is more the 'mature' bit that I wanted to have discussed, as that affects far more people than just a few male nannies.

Nannying and indeed any childcare work has been a female vocation for as long as I can remember. I face the same challenge now as I did 22 years ago. Have things changed? Maybe, certainly when the topic of men working with children comes up on Mumsnet and on NetMums there is quite a bit of support for men being able to work in childcare. Though in reality I do wonder how many parents (fathers in particularly) would be prepared to have a man care for their children.

Laquitar - I agree it is a feminist issue. Women are discriminated against in the workplace, maybe not as much as in the past but it's still happening. If an organisation says they need someone with at least 10 years experience and aged under 35, then there are likely to be more male candidates than female as more women take career breaks for childcare reasons. If an organisation was to say that, then it would be indirect sex discrimination.

In childcare work we see something similar happening... ads saying that they want someone with 10 years experience. In childcare the applicants are mostly going to be female but by having a 10 year experience criteria it may mean that those who could apply will of a certain age, or who have had a break to have children themselves.

sunshinenanny - "The husband did not think it would be a good idea to hire a nanny of a similar age to their mother" - so why not hire a bloke? That would have resolved that one. "so asked only to see nannies who were 20/25" - yet they could have left the job ad not specifying any age and then see who they got applying. Then shortlist based on criteria of more than just age, there may have been applicants who were 5-10 years older than the mother was when she died, why would they have not been suitable?

It is not about forcing parents to comply with anything, they can ultimately choose who they recruit. I feel it is about getting agencies to direct their clients in to making jobs as open as possible otherwise they risk having such a small pool of applicants that there will be no one to choose between. Maybe that is a good thing - hire the first person whose CV you see.

What if a parent wanted a young sporty male nanny, would it be fine to state that in a job ad? Maybe it is a single mother in their mid to late 40's who fancies having a toy boy, thus wants a fit young man.

Does this then start getting in the discussion which I think we may have had in the past on here about agencies requiring a full photo of applicants. So showing their body size, hair colour/style and other characteristics? By having that at initial CV stage, are employers really not going to look at the photo and consciously or subconsciously discriminate based on what they see? Sure employers may do that at interview stage but at least by that point you have your food through the door so other factors may get you the job, even if you body size wasn't what the employer had pictured in their head.

Nanny nick, what do you think of this agency then?!!
Www.mybigbuddy.com

The father did not want a mother or grandmother figure for his two little girls but wanted someone able to be more of a big sister. but old enough to have a little experience as a sole charge nanny in charge of two fragile little girls still grieving for their mummy. As a recently bereaved father I think he had the right to advertise as he wished and when this took place male nannies were virtually unheard of and nanny jobs were exempt from the sex discrimination act.

One agency based in a large city. They are expanding but not in the UK, in Australia. So is there not demand for mannies in other cities in the UK other than London?

As I put earlier, "has it changed?" Some parents are prepared to consider it but when most think of a nanny, they think of a women... or do you not feel that is the case?

I wonder how that agency copes with advertising jobs, as they are aiming to find mannies. Do they use wording like "young man" "mature man"?

But you obviously find work Nick and if you have done this job for 22 years you must be good at it.

I'm handicapped because I don't drive and some people might think a mature nanny is not able to cope with the children or a young nanny may not be experienced enough.

Whatever the agency puts on an advert the family will see the CVs and discriminate if they've decided they don't want: A man, a certain age group, a non driver.

I decided early on in an interview many years ago that under no circumstances would I work for an interviewing couple when one of their lines of inquiry became so offensive I was taken aback but they wouldn't have dared ask the agency to include it on their profile/advert.

Whatever the agency puts on an advert the family will see the CVs and discriminate if they've decided they don't want: A man, a certain age group, a non driver.

Yes, parents can and will chose whomever they like and they don't need to give a reason for why they decide to interview someone or not (to my knowledge).

Agencies though should be finding the best candidate for the job, which may not be the parents initial picture of what their nanny will be. So shouldn't the agency be advertising jobs in such a way that they are open to more candidates, then the parents can decide from the CVs whom they will interview. Maybe by seeing more CVs they would reconsider their initial picture of their ideal nanny.

When first deciding to have a nanny, do parents get a picture in their mind of whom that person will be? Mrs Doubtfire - probably not but maybe some do.

Are nanny roles really exempt from equality laws? That sounds dodgy to me...

I think people should be able to use words like 'mature' as to my mind this is a positive attribute when one is looking after children. There are mature people of all ages IMO although yes you are more likely to find people identifying as mature in there 30's and onwards.

Surely it just saves everyone time in applying etc.

Miscellaneous, I don't know about now but when nanny jobs were advertised stating they wanted a woman at the time I am talking about there would be an accompanying notice stating that the job was exempt from the sex discrimination act.

I don't agree with the reasons why this was so but it was considered that parents had the right not to have there young children cared for by a man if they so wished.

I'm surprised because I was under the impression that carers were the/ one of the only roles that was exempt - because of the personal care element. That's carers as in for disabled and elderly people.

It is absolutely appropriate that vulnerable adults should not be forced into positions where they would feel humiliated and all independence taken away - whether its rationally right or not. I do think their right to have a say over who cares for them is absolutely paramount.

However that's a world away from nannying, and I can't see how/ why that should be covered by the same exemption!

Btw, I became disabled and now employ carers. And a mum who employs nannies.

I am very much in favour of no discrimination in all careers, that actually sounds ridiculous because clearly discrimination is wrong!

Actually, I would actually actively like to seek out a male nanny to do some hours as DS would really benefit (no male role model). But there's no way I would have that same person helping me in very personal situations - and am very thankful the law allows me to make that differentiation and that personal choice. It could sound sexist, but alone and vulnerable in my own home, not the same as hospitals etc. where I wouldn't even think about gender.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I'm very grateful I get to choose who I have as a carer, I cannot see how that situation can be extrapolated to include professions such as nannying.

Oh and as for age discrimination - no reason to bring age into it. Experience yes, age no. Physical strength to meet strains of the job yes, age no. Computer skills yes, age no Etc etc. Just no reason for she to be a factor. I wonder if 'mature' is the way of getting round age discrimination? As 'mature' is not actually the word for 'older'.

Intimate personal care of a child aged 8+ I feel is reasonable for having carer same gender as the child. That would cover those with disabilities as most children that age do not need someone to help them go to the toilet, shower.

For young children it is silly though. If it isn't suitable for a man to care for a girl then would that not mean a woman should not care for a boy?
Why is childcare still seen as womens work?

Why is childcare still seen as womens work?

Very good question, nannynick, and one frequently discussed on the FWR boards

This has been a v interesting thread.

We have only boys and No Way In Hell would DH ever have considered a male nanny/childcarer - I would have.

Last time I was job hunting I found mothers were generally willing to consider a male nanny. It was fathers who were the problem yet would not say why. Maybe it is that they feel a man would become a subsitute father. Yet they don't have an issue having a female nanny who could be come a subsitute mother.

Nannies don't become subsitute parents. Children know the difference.

It's often the dads who don't want a male nanny - maybe they feel insecure - who knows

Totally understand why you would want to chose the gender of a carer