Anyone asked for ELCS for first baby?

[PixieCake]

Hi there,

I have been reading a lot about those of you asking for ELCS after a first traumatic birth. Is there anyone out there who has asked for one for their first baby, for non-medical reasons?

My reasons are mainly psychological (fear) although my mother did have terrible labours (don't know if that counts?)

I have done all my research, fully understand the risks and believe I have made an informed decision.
Unfortunately, when I told the MW at my booking appointment she was not impressed. I said I want to discuss it with a consultant and she said I should wait until I am over 30 weeks.

I am only 10 weeks pregnant but finding this very stressful and do not want this hanging over me until the late stages of pregnancy. Plus, if I am refused, I need time to investigate other options.

Can anyone share any advice?

Anyone know a sympathetic consultant at Kingston who I could ask? I have been given Al-Shabibi - anyone had experiences with her?

Many thanks!

OTTMummA So so to hear about what your family member had to go through. Poor woman must have been at the end of her tether.

Pixiecake Hoping you can get all the support you need for the birth that is right for you and your LO. Purely out of interest - have you ever seen a VB either in real life or a video? I know that I hadn't before having my 1st and it was mostly the fear of the unknown that made me so terrified of it all. Others who know about tokophobia feel free to shoot me down in flames - I know nothing of the phobia but I wondered if forewarned is forearmed might be a strategy in this case?

When I say don't believe the horror stories, I mean people who tell you that a section always involves crippling pain, not being able to lift a cup of tea or hold your baby, a long stay in hospital and weeks of being incapacitated. I got loads of this.

Of course I am not saying that no-one who has had a section experiences problems, that would be silly. Simply that you won't necessarily.

Arcadie, she didn't know she had tokophobia before she got pregnant, she told me she never thought about child birth when trying to concieve, just the baby after etc,( i know its hard to understand ) but after her first mw appointment she actually wanted to have an abortion as she didn't know she could ask for a section, thankfully her husband did some research and they went in together to see the consultant etc, but they didn't take her seriously until she asked them to book her in for an abortion at 22 weeks., to let her get to that stage, i think is barbaric.
obviously she didn't want an abortion, but the alternative was so incomprehensable she felt she had no choice.

Also, from her support group shes told me that the phobia tends to stem from being over exposed to VB stories/info, things heard or told to them by family, so i don't think forwarned = forarmed etc in most cases.

for a lot of them they accidently got pregnant dispite them using 2/3 types of contraception, many of them also use the morning after pill a lot just to make sure.

its sad that people don't accept this really, its disgusting they get told to get on with it, everyone gets scared about it blah,, blah, people don't have a go or belittle people with a phobia of needles or bees's, you can actually die being pregnant or giving birth ffs, Its perfectly reasonable to expect women to have a phobia of it.

OTTMummA, that's really interesting, and very sad, and rings a lot of bells.

Phobias (and a lot of mental health issues) aren't logical, is the thing - I've been asked why I didn't address the issue before I got pregnant, and all I can say is that I was so terrified/repelled, I just wanted to bury my head in the sand about it, and did so. (then, ironically, after putting off the thought of babies for years - almost too long really - I had trouble conceiving. Imagine what a fun year that was - scared I wouldn't be able to have children, terrified I would have to.) I know it sounds mad that someone could desperately want to have children, and then beg for a termination when they were pregnant - but it does happen, it's not a logical condition, and I understand where they are coming from.

When you are not pregnant, you can mostly avoid the issue - switch over if it there's a scene on the telly, leave conversations that head that way etc. And even once you're pregnant, there's still that 1st trimester to get through before it hits home, for me anyway. I wish I had tried to tackle things beforehand, I can see that would be more sensible! but truly, it's one of those problems that has such a stigma attached to it, trying to be honest with yourself, let alone other people, is incredibly hard. I've been upfront about my past depression in a way that I never could be about tokophobia. Once in a while a thread pops up in MN from someone who seems to be phobic and wants to try and do something about it before TTC, and they get some shocking reactions ('if you won't even try and have a VB, you don't deserve children' etc, or 'oh, I get scared, we all do, get over it'.).

As an aside, seeing images of birth in a book at an early age were a factor for me. It's really not a simple thing to unpick, the roots of it all, and I'm not trying to here - but for someone who was being sexually abused, the images had an association and an effect they probably wouldn't have had for someone else. That's still true for me today. Even typing this is making my heart race and my stomach flip over.

However, I do see that for women who have an anxiety that stems from lack of info and understanding, then some guided education would be good. I think that's a slightly different kettle of fish though, and I don't want to belittle other women's fears when I say that. (btw, I'd love to try NCT classes or similar for stuff about post natal care and BF-ing etc, but can't really risk a full on panic attack the minute they start discussing VB. Wouldn't be much fun for the class, either)

(should add, I don't want to hijack the thread - though I want to be clear I'm talking about me here, not second guessing or diagnosing the OP in any way).

PS to be fair, there are positive reactions as well as negative to this issue on MN, and there have been kind reactions on this thread as well. Should recognise that really (and thanks DoulaKate, I'm thoroughly enjoying being pregnant, which has been a lovely surprise!).

OTTMummA Barbaric is the right word. and [crikey] Hope she's ok now.

Thanks for setting me straight on the forewarned = forearmed - I did say I know NOWT about it and I appreciate the info (cos I'm bound to come across a friend who suffers from it eventually)It makes a lot of sense that the fear would come from people freaking you out about how painful it is yadda yadda yadda. I know that my Mummy friends and I have been politely requested on occasion to stop discussing childbirth in front of friends without kids because we're going into detail that we find fascinating and not particularly worrisome but that others find traumatic.

My friend is having an elcs at kingston after a first traumatic birth.

She had a bit of a hard time getting them to ok it and threatened to go through PALS though I don't think she had to in the end.

If you find it hard to get your point across then you can ask PALS to do the talking for you.

Don't know anything about that particular Kingston consultant but I had to see consultant about 4 times in first pregnancy and again in this pregnancy- though only once so far and out of the 5 appointments I have seen my named consultant once so I wouldn't get too hung up on a particular one tbh.

Thank you to everyone who has replied with advice, tips or shared personal stories. I have read every post carefully and a lot of good points have been raised. Please keep the posts coming if anyone thinks of anything else.

Barkfox, thank you for all your posts. I'm really glad you got the option you wanted in the end, but am sorry you had such a struggle to get there.

ScoutLiam, I was very interested in your post. I understand that you don't wish to share your reasons for requesting an ELCS but if you have any more advice I would love to hear it.

Arcadie, it's been years since I watched a birth (I almost saw one by mistake when that 'one born every minute' series was on, but managed to find the remote and change channel just in time!). I tried watching some on YouTube yesterday but felt so sick and shakey that I couldn't.

Girlsyearapart, sorry to hear that you found Al-shabibi unsympathetic. This is exactly what I was afraid of. I have just phoned PALS to ask how I go about changing consultant and they said I have to request from Al-shabibi to be transfered to someone else, and she has to agree. That doesn't sound like fun. However, I just called the antenatal clinic and they told me she was leaving. I don't know if that is correct, and it may be too late for you now anyway (I think you said you were 37 wks) but thought I would pass the info on.

The clinic told me that I can request a new consultant when I go for my scan. This is different to what PALS said but I will try my luck. In the meantime I will email my current consultant plus the one I want to have, and see if I have any luck that way- unless one of you advises me not to!

I have tried to get an appointment to see the consultant but have been told that I have to wait until I have had my scan as the consultants like to see the scan results before consultations. I am considering seeing my GP in the meantime to get a back-up letter of some sort, but to be honest I find it so stressful having to talk about it. I can't stop crying as soon as the appointment begins and I feel like that makes me look pathetic and weak. I wish I could just put it all in writing instead of having to go in, but I suppose they will need to ask me questions etc.

But you all seem to agree about not coming across as demanding so that is good advice which I will take.

Talk soon,

PixieCake

Pixie, IME Mr Anim is pretty amiable re: elective sections. I would request him if I were in your position.

Oh yep that was the name of my consultant- only seen him once out of five apts though. He was nice though.

Thanks both. I have heard good things about Andrew Pooley but if I can't get him then I will try for Mr Anim.
Good stuff. (I hope).

Mr P is nice but Mr A is the consultant most likely to give you an elective CS.

I had ELCS for DD1 and it was the best thing I could have chosen. Out of hospital after two days, bounced back in record time despite age (42), bf for seven months without any problem. Am going to have ELCS again for DD2, and am fiercely vocal about what a good choice it was.
It is your body and your baby and your choice, and it is 2010 not the middle ages - no woman should suffer (in my opinion, no woman should want to suffer and go through VB with out proper pain management, but that's another story). Good luck!

Hi HarderToKidnap. Please can you tell me why you think Mr A is a better bet than Mr P? Am confused now. Did you try them both? Or have you read it on this forum? I really want to get this right to give me my best possible chance so please advise!

Pinguina, was your CS private or on the NHS? If it was NHS, would you be willing to share how you managed to get it?

Thanks all.

My ELCS for y first was NHS for no medical reason. I do not have a 'fear' of the pain beyond which is normal but really a disgust at the whole process of VB and have no wish to ever experience that. It wasn't easy to convince a consutant to agree and I did have to use my right to a second opinion who luckiy agreed (I did not need to be asessed by a psychaiatrist as is so often suggested as necessary on doscussion threads). Make sure you have your reasons clear and that you do your homework into the pros and cons. Take someone with you to the consultant appointment to back you up should emotions get to much (my DH was wonderful and I doubt I would have got a section without him). Insist your M gets you a onsultant appointment or go to your GP or the consultant direct but don't leave it til you are 30 weeks - start early, it's not a quick process.

Can honesty say my ELCS was fanastic and I have since had anoher child also by ELCS (the second one is much easier to get )

Agree with HandsOffMyDrum re CS horror stories. Before I had an CS I also believed that it would be a terrible experience, when actually it turned out to be great - and that was an emergency one! Healed quickly, manageable pain, very neat scar, breast-fed for 14 months.

barkfox: Wishing you the best of luck with your birth. You come across as an amazingly brave and honest person. I wish there were special ante-natal classes for people in yours and PixieCake's situation. If I'm honest though, I don't think I really learnt a huge amount at my classes that ended up being useful (altho I guess mostly because I ended up having an EMCS). The most useful thing about them for me was being forewarned about the sheer number of medics present for a CS (would have shocked me if I hadn't known) and meeting one of my (now) best friends there. If you join lots of newborn classes (music, nursery rhymes etc) and you'll meet loads of new friends who will be with you every step of the way with Bfeeding etc.

Had ELCS for first (and second) DC. First at C&W. Family history big babies and difficult births but no real medical history in my case when I requested. (By the time of birth had had a problem at 30 weeks requiring 48 hrs in hospital and was established that baby was large and placenta low etc). But at time of request (about 20 weeks) I was simply adamant that I didn't want a VB, and my GP supported me (said a section was the only way she would have one!). Consultant agreed. When booking the 'date' a registrar tried to talk me out of it but I remained firm. Found recovery v straightforward and have never regretted. Good luck.

I just thought I would come back to this thread (someone linked to it today and I thought god, that was a long time ago....)

I was posting here as barkfox. To complete the story, I had my CS - a little early, as my waters went before my planned cs date, but it was fine, I was over 37 weeks, so they just did the cs earlier.

It went very smoothly, and was very enjoyable! yes, exciting and enjoyable! ds had APGARS of 9 and 10, breastfed enthusiastically from the start, gained weight very nicely and was 100 percent breastfed, never had a drop of formula (I'd happily have given formula if he needed it, but he didn't).

I was home in 2 days and recovered much more quickly than I was expecting to. Stitches out day 5 and really only stiffness to deal with after that.

I had a nasty moment in hospital where some mws cocked up (or worse, withheld) my painkillers for no good reason, but once I was back on the protocol dose, I was fine.

I just thought I would 'complete the circle' by saying how it went in the end. I know people in my position tend to be a bit desperate for info as it is hard to come by, and might appreciate knowing the outcome. Me and ds were totally fine and it was a hugely positive experience.

PS CakeandRoses was spot on about newborn classes and bf groups. Great places to meet other mums and share info.

Hi Pixiecake

I am 22 weeks with my first baby and got my ELCS granted yesterday! It feels like a weight off my shoulders as like you I was getting so stressed about it. My reasons for wanting one were sort of medical- a few years ago I had a procedure done on my cervix (biopsy and cryo-cautery) and although i wasn't given an indication at the time this was done it would affect childbirth it made me anxious and not want to risk it. I read up and researched VB/ELCS and was confident in my choice of ELCS.

After my 12 week scan I told the midwife I wanted to see a consultant to discuss a caesarean. the midwife was very snippy about it but did say she would refer to the consultsnt who was most likely to grant me it. The appointment was made for yesterday- as you say they like you to have your 20 week scan done before discussing.

I went in to see him armed with my little speech, he listened and then said "Well for what it's worth, I don't think you would have a problem delivering vaginally but you obviously want a c-section so lets get you booked in".

so what I am trying to say is that whilst midwives in particular are snippy about them, the consultant may not have an issue with granting you an ELCS.

Best of luck.

Hi fruitycake / barkfox

Thanks for the update and really glad things went well for you.

In case anyone was following my post, I got my CS booked in by the consultant with no problem at all, even though I had no 'medical' reason for needing one on paper. He put it down as tokophobia. I was incredibly relieved and delighted.

Unfortunately things didn't quite go to plan. I went into labour a week before I was booked in. I had been told that this wouldn't be a problem, so went straight to hospital expecting to have my CS.

My lovely consultant was away on holiday, and the consultant on duty didn't think I should have the CS. She was very rude and condescending, leaving me in floods of tears when she tried to do an internal but I couldn't let her and she got cross. There was a lot of confusion about whether I was or wasn't going down to theatre, and in the end I was told that I was, but would have to wait for a slot between the emergency cases.

I was given an epidural and surgical stockings and was put in a side room. I kept sending DH out to enquire about when I was going down, but never got a straight answer. Meanwhile labour was progressing.

I had arrived at 6am. By 2pm I still hadn't gone down to theatre. Then here was a shift change and a much nicer consultant came to see me. She said I could have the CS, but I was now fully dilated and the baby's head was right down, so she advised that it would be risky for both me and for the baby to have to pull the baby back up through the pelvis, since she was almost born.

Things then happened very quickly. Lots of people came in and some were telling me to push. I got in a panic, didn't know how or where to push (was totally unprepared for labour) and just freaked out. They ended up putting my legs in stirrups and pulling out the baby with a suction cap. This should not have happened in this position since I had severe SPD.

I was in a real state and lay there sobbing and didn't even want to see or hold my baby for quite a while afterwards.

Sadly I have been left with some damage to my pelvis so still have severe SPD even 18 months after the birth. Also having counselling because of the impact on my life of being in pain every day.

So it wasn't a great outcome for me in the end. I'm sorry if this comes across as a negative post. My advice to anyone who has a CS booked in for a 'non-medical' reason is to ask the consultant to write a clear instruction in the notes that the CS is to be performed by the duty team if he or she is not present.

Pixiecake, I am so so sorry things didn't go as planned. And, that after having a cs agreed, you got a bitch of a consultant at the hospital who 'knew better'.

Thank you for coming back to update your story.

Pixie did you make a complaint? And if you didn't, do you think you could face doing it now? Because reading that makes me so angry for you :(

Pixie, thank you for the update. My greatest nightmare is to be in your position where having had an ELCS agreed someone denies it. I really feel for you. I hope things get better.

I only hope that something good can come out of your story; that anyone reading this thread can do everything possible to make sure they don't end up having the same happen to them. Not that it will ever be any consolation to you.

All the best.

Pixie I'm so sorry to read this. Thank you so much for sharing this with us, I will definitely go see my consultant again now after ready your experience. I'm disgusted at how the treated you, it's appalling.

I hope you're happy and well now and were able to move forward xx