"It's good for women to suffer the pain of a natural birth"

[Qally]

...says a Professor of Midwifery.

"A large number of women want to avoid pain. Some just don't fancy the pain [of childbirth]. More women should be prepared to withstand pain. Pain in labour is a purposeful, useful thing, which has quite a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a newborn baby."

Apparently epidurals on demand are bad. The correct person to determine the amount of pain a woman is in is not the woman herself.

"The NHS should abandon routine pain relief and embrace a new "working with pain" approach which would encourage women to use yoga, hypnosis, massage, support from their partners, hydrotherapy and birthing pools as natural ways of alleviating their pain"

All said by a man, who has no idea what actually birthing is like. It's not so appalling for people with easy labours, but what about people who have a terrible time? Induced labours? Who the hell is he to tell people whose pain was severe enough to leave them with PTSD that it's good for them?

It's obviously great to offer the kind of support he's advocating, and to make sure women are properly informed about the risks of a cascade of intervention. But offering those alternative methods instead, instead of as well? How is that supporting women's choices? And why is lessening acute pain only this controversial for birthing women?

I once watched a male comedian on tv talking about childbirth and the men who say 'we had a baby' he stated that unless that man had passed a bowling ball through his genitalia or had an umbrella shoved and opened up his back passage then he could have no idea of what a woman went through in childbirth.
Having tried to not use anything but gas and air and tens I can honestly say he's correct.I was in labour from the friday and my daughter wasn't born until the monday,I had no pain relief till the sunday and then as happened with my first child the wonderful midwife said,enough,and persuaded me to just have one pethidine injection.Thank goodness I think I would have gone mad from the pain as it turned out I was suffering gallstones and pancreatitus at the time.
Could we all ask that this so called professor try one of the methods suggested by the comedian or a good bout of pancreatitus to replicate the feeling of childbirth without any pain relief as I feel that a broken leg/finger is nowhere near adaquate an example for him to work from

Hi, Singingmum. Just astounded at your story, because I also had gallstones and pancreatitus, but didn't know it till two weeks after giving birth. The pain is so similar to labour, I thought they'd left one in there!

P.S. Hope your OK now.

Fine now though missing gall bladder
Completely get that it feels like one left behind thankfully all over a few years ago People who say things with no first hand knowledge like this professor annoy the living h*!! out of me.

I fail to see what relevance the fact that Denis Walsh happens to be male is? So he has never, and will never give birth. So what? He is a learned professor of midwifery, with years of experience and research behind him. The media (as per) have taken a lot of what he said out of context. I know many (female) midwives who entirely agree with him, and many women who have had natural pain relief free births who do too.

I don't suppose oncologists have any right to comment on the sufferings of a cancer patient unless they themselves have had cancer?

Well, if oncologists were suggesting that cancer patients should do without pain relief, then the point that they haven't experienced the pain might well be raised?

Denis Walsh is great. He's written so many good articles about birth and midwifery.

He's not saying that nobody should have an epidural. He's just raising concerns about epidural becoming the norm for the majority of births, as it has done in the US and in some other countries.

As evidenced by many of the posts this board over the years - most women who are well supported in labour don't want and don't need an epidural for a normal birth, even though they experience a lot of pain.

I suppose what gets my goat is that of all the things that are wrong with UK maternity services, Walsh chooses to attack mothers and blame us for having too many epidurals.

He could have commented on (for example) the lack of 1:1 midwifery care that leaves so many labouring women alone and frightened. Or the miserable, neglectful postnatal wards that are so many women's introduction to motherhood.

But instead he turned his assault on mothers, saying things like "Some just don't fancy the pain". And heaping the guilt onto women who've had epidurals and caesareans by implying that they were less prepared for bonding, citing spurious 'emerging research'.

That's not the way to support mothers to make informed choices about their care.

Sorry, but anyone who says pain can make someone a better mother can sod right off. Many, many people on this thread have agreed vehemently with him that there needs to be far better support of women in labour, and a lot better provision of support for birthing women. What they object to is the paternalistic fetishising of pain. Misrepresenting what people here are saying is a bit ironic when accusing the press of it with regard to Walsh, I feel.

People experience pain very differently. I was hugely lucky and had a near total block just from gas and air in the last 2 hours of a very long labour. Many people aren't that lucky, and deserve whatever they need to get through it - why on earth should the only women allowed an epidural be those with such long labours they may be getting tired? My labour was 3 days - but I never needed anything other than a TENS till the last few hours. I know people who had babies averagely fast, and yet wanted to marry the anaesthetist, the pain was so shockingly bad and the epidural so blessedly welcome. And his qualifications are irrelevant when he's arguing about a level of pain he will never encounter without drugs himself. It's inherently distasteful to bind burdens only other shoulders can carry, and romanticise them as a way to do that. Pain isn't romantic, and unmanageable pain is vile and horrible.

I believe the best way is a staircase of pain relief options, as I said, with the labouring woman in control of what she needs at various stages. Women aren't stupid - I knew I wanted to avoid pethidene or an epidural, but I also know from the moments without gas and air that if it hadn't worked so effectively, I would have killed for something that did. So why not give them all the info, and trust them to choose wisely for themselves? Or is it okay to be paternalistic if you're Walsh, and not a consultant?

Except he didn't just say that 'women don't fancy the pain' did he? That's what the sloppy journalist said, he was talking about the need for decent 1 to 1 care for women and other ways of working with pain to avoid the use of epidurals - which (whether you like it or not) do have a downside.

M

The Observer has "Some just don't fancy the pain" as a direct quote. Has he claimed they made it up?

Likewise "Pain in labour is a purposeful, useful thing, which has quite a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a newborn baby."?

the way women experience pain and deal with it differs widely..some women have a very high threshold for pain and so can handle delivery without pain relievers but then there are women who can not and so it is unfair for any of us to use one yardstick to measure all women ..i myself did not need anything but that was me and i could symathise with another woman who screams out for an epidural ...is it fair to say women these days want it easy..well everything else is made easy nowasadys so why not giving birth if you choose to??

Marx - the link provided is not to the lecture. It's his Powerpoint presentation for the lecture. The Observer, whose journalist was present (unlike any of us) directly quoted him, as did several other papers, and he hasn't denied saying any of it that I know of. So yes, he did say that.

he has no uterus, only a knob.

'nuff said.

hmmm, reminds of the thread where a MNer kept after the "breathe through the pain" line of comment. Even after i had mentioned that I had done yoga and meditation for almost 10 years before ds1 and still started to hallucinate from the pain

Perhaps someone should apply some type of recurring force to a part of his body for 36 hours and then ask him how he feels about the benefits of pain...

wades in
I had a horrific first birth-due in part i am sure-to the amount of drugs i was allowed to take (i asked for them but they could have refused me an epidural top up....)anyway- i was TERRIFIED of giving birth a second time and did it with nothing-not gas and air,nothing,in the hospital-my experience of birth the second time around did make it easier for me to bond with my baby(i wasn't hooked upto a drip/numb from the scalp down,with a catheter and having a blood transfusion for the first few days with an arse hole that felt like it had been lined with tight barbed wire...
i believe the difference was in supported labour-nct,breathing etc etc. If you'd told me prior to actually doing it that birth could be like that then i wouldn't believe you-it still hurt like fuck but you know-dealable with. DP tells everyone it was a doddle..which doesn't help...

I had a heavily medicalised labour, against my wishes, but necessary because I had pre-eclampsia. I then had an epidural as it's supposed to help bring your blood pressure down (or that's what I was told). However I ended up with an epidural headache that lasted for over 2 weeks, despite having a blood patch administered to try to seal the hole and stop my spinal fluid leaking out which failed. The headache was so painful I could only walk stooped over, and it seriously effected my bonding time with my daughter, something that has taken a long time to rectify.

I am 16 weeks pregnant with my next baby, and plan to go through it as naturally as possible. I haven't ever really got over the trauma of the first birth.

Having said that, it is a woman's right to have the birth she wants, pain-free or with pain-maintenance, without judgement.

I bet he has pain relief when he has teeth pulled out. What a knob.

I will probably get abuse for this but im afraid i agree with what the man said i had my first child when i was 18 because i was young and scared i was basically told i was having an epidural i was induced for high blood pressure and told it was the best thing for my baby and all i can say it was horrific, and i ended up going in to theatre having a sheet put over my face and not actually seeing my daughter when she was actually born it also took me around 3 months to feel slightly normal aferwards, and at 18 i was suffering back ache which i have suffered with ever since!
subsequently it was a whole 7 years before i had another child and i must admit that too was an accident because i never wanted to go through child birth EVER again and all the way through my pregnancy i was petrified i even missed hospital appointments (stupid i know!)i was determined to go in to labour naturally and be totally in control of everything and all i can say is that i am so glad i had my baby naturally, before when i watched tv and saw these women crying with joy i couldnt understand it and now i do it was agonty yes but it was shorter (by 12 hours!)and i actually saw my little boy come in to the world without been sick in my hair After!! i was up and in the shower after half an hour and if he hadnt swallowed muconiom i wouldve happily gone home in an hour and that was 6 weeks ago and to be truelly honest i dont even feel like i went through a labour and i am much closer bonded with my son than i am with my daughter which is sad but then on the other hand i could never have a tooth pulled out with out pain relief!! and i wouldnt be expected to i think it is what is right for the individual but my personal experiance it was better happier faster and more emotional dooing it naturally :O

Pregnancy and childbirth is not an illness or an operation! You can't compare it to amputation! It is a normal physiological natural process. If women go into pregnancy and labour with this mentality then it is no surprise that the epidural rate is rising! So is the assisted delivery and c section rate! As a nearly qualified midwife I have seen too many women go down the epidural route. It is not a decision to be taken lightly and has side effects for both mother and baby.

Who cares if Denis Walsh is male or female? He is a truly inspirational and experienced midwife who was highlighting the increasing intervention rates in maternity care. One intervention leads to another and this is not beneficial for mother or baby.

Epidurals have their place but should certainly not be a womans first choice in pain relief!

I dont think Denis Walsh was pointing the blame at women. He has always been an advcoate for one to one care in labour which evidence has shown decreases a womans need for pain relief and reduces intervention rates (Hodnett et al, 2006). He is also an advocate for continuity of care and informed choice.

I think the real message has been lost here.

Please watch the business of being born!

I am nowhere nearly as qualified as Denis Wlash, nor can I present myself as elequently as him but I am a midwife, a female one at that...

In FACT I've given birth vaginally and therefor (according to the above posters) I am far more qualified than Denis Walsh will ever be.

And I completely agree with him. 100%. I didn't have an easy labour but I was supported 1:1 by a very good midwife... If she had been looking after a second lady with an epidural then I perhaps wouldn't have got that.

Epidurals have a place and when given at the right stage or in the correct situation they can reduce risks but there is an expectation that it shouldn't hurt at all but even an elective section under spinal gives pain... it's a painful process... if it's not painful then is it really a normal process?

A midwifery lecture of mine loved the phrase 'cascade of intervention'... epidurals used too early in what are essentially normal labours CAN begin that cascade. Like ALL pain relief it has side effects and risks that come with it.

What most concerns me about this thread is the language and tirades of abuse focused towards a respected midwife, a midwife who is experienced in his craft of helping women give birth. Giving birth didn't make me a midwife, it didn't even make me a better midwife - all childbirth did was make me a mummy...

I also have grave concerns about people who advocate the 'breaking of midwives fingers' to teach them a lesson about the pain of childbirth. You might think it a 'jolly jape' but is the assault of a healthcare professionals is a real problem in uk hospitals. A colleague did indeed have her fingers broken by a labouring woman... she finished delivering the woman before being strapped up in A&E and then not being able to work for 2 months whilst her dominant hand healed. Absolutely hilarious... and it taught her nothing about the pain of childbirth... she was too worried that she might never work again if her hand didn't heal to think about the pain of childbirth.

He might be a man but he is a respected member of my profession, the name of which means 'With Woman' not I am a woman.

Pain good my arse. I thought that went out with Martin Luther (not King).

What wahwahwah said.

Misogynist crap. Suffer more to be a better mother? Wonder if he's ever heard of PND triggered by birth trauma

Oooh - just came across this little mine of gems... Gone off Confuscious in a big way (pity since I have just started a biog of him).

Meg Bowman gathered these quotations together in 1988 for her Dramatic Readings on Feminist Issues. When performed each sexist quote is burned after being read aloud. They were published in 1997 in Women Without Superstition, No Gods, No Masters, edited by Annie Laurie Gaylor**

Of course few people, even Christian clergy would agree with these quotations today, but they represent the history of the deep seated religious attitudes that lead to the still prevalent demeaning and ill treatment of women:-

1. One of the worst sexists was the revered sage Confucius. This respected religious leader said, "One hundred women are not worth a single testicle."

2. This respected authority on how to live wrote in the Confucian Marriage Manual (551-479 BCE) The five worst infirmities that affect the female are indocility, discontent, slander, jealousy and silliness ... Such is the stupidity of women's character, that it is incumbent upon her, in every particular, to distrust herself and to obey her husband

3. "The Hindu Code of Mann, dated about 250 BCE regulates social customs and lists detailed precepts for daily life, such as: "In childhood a women must be subject to her father; in youth, to her husband; when her husband is dead, to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."

4. Also from this most impressive law book: "If a wife has no children after eight years of marriage, she shall be banished; if all of her children are dead, she can be dismissed after ten years; and, if she produces only girls she shall be repudiated after eleven years."

5. Tertullian, the founder of Western theology, said in A.D. 22: "Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You should always go in mourning and in rags." He also wrote: "Do you know that each of your women is an Eve? The sentence of God - on this sex of yours -lives in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law."

6. And the church father St. Clement of Alexandria wrote in 96: "Let us set our womenfold on the road to goodness by teaching them ... to display ... submissiveness, to observe silence. Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman."

7. St. John Chrysostom (345?-407), Patriarch of Constantinople: "Among all savage beasts none is found so harmful as woman."

8. St. Ambrose, author and composer of hymns, bishop of Milan (340?- 397): "Adam was led to sin by Eve and Eve by Adam. It is just and right that woman accept as lord and master him whom she led to sin." (I say, "Eve Was Framed!")

9. The "moral majority" has been around a long time. Listen to this early Christian church father St. Augustine (354-430): "Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders ..."

10. Council of Macon: In the year 584,in Lyons, France, forty-three Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other bishops, held a most serious debate: "Are Women Human?" After many lengthy arguments, a vote was taken. The results were thirty-two yes, thirty-one no. Women were declared human by one vote!

11. The Koran, the catechism, the holy book of Islam, (Circa 650): Men are superior to women.

12. Daily prayer of the Orthodox Jewish Male (still in use today): "Blessed art thou, 0 Lord our God and King of the Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."

13. The Old Testament book of Deuteronomy (22:20-21) notes that if a woman be found not to be a virgin, ". . . then they shall bring the damsel to the door of her father's house and the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die."

14. Exodus 20:17 and 22:16-17 declares as law that if a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed (thus damaging the father's property)-he (the rapist) shall marry her. (Can you imagine having to marry your rapist?!) If the father doesn't wish this, the rapist shall pay money equivalent to the marriage/bride price for virgins.

15. Job a 5:4: "How can he be clean that is born of woman?"

16. Leviticus 12:1-2, 5: And the Lord spake unto Moses saying: speak unto the children of Israel, saying: if a woman be delivered, "... and bear a man-child then she shall be unclean for seven days .... But if she bear a maid-child, then she shall be unclean for two weeks..."

17. In 1847, a British obstetrician, Dr. Simpson, used chloroform as an anesthetic in delivering a baby. A scandal followed, and the holy men of the Church of England prohibited the use of anesthetic in childbirth, citing Genesis 3:16: "God said to woman Eve, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy pain in childbearing. In pain thou shalt bring forth children ... and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee. "

18. Ecclesiastes 7:26-28: "I find a woman more bitter than death; she is a snare, her heart a net, her arms are chains. No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman. May a sinner's lot be hers."

20 New Testament: I Corinthians 11:7-9: Man is the image of God ... whereas woman reflects the glory of man. For man did not originally spring from woman, but woman was made out of man; and man was not created for woman's sake, but woman for the sake of man.

21. I Timothy 2:9-12,15: I desire that "women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly ... not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire ... Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. Yet women will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty."

22. I Corinthians r+3 3-36: It is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Wives should regard their husbands as they regard the Lord. Women are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home.

23. The Coptic text of the Gospel of Thomas (these are the Gnostic texts discovered in 1945) translates: (r 14) Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

24. Moving into the Middle Ages, St. Thomas Aquinas, the well-known 13th-century Italian theologian, said: "Woman is defective and accidental... and misbegotten ... a male gone awry ... the result of some weakness in the (father's) generative power."

25. The renowned Protestant clergyman, Martin Luther (1483-1546), said: "God created Adam lord of all living creatures, but Eve spoiled it all." And: "Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear and bring up children." Again: "If a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it." [Die Ethnik Martin Luthers, Althaus, p. 100; or, this may have been said by Philip Melancthon, an associate of Luther.]

26. John Knox, sixteenth-century founder of Scottish Presbyterianism, declared: Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man, not rule and command him.

27. Samuel Butler (r6r2-r68o), the English poet, wrote: "The souls of women are so small that some believe they've none at all."

28. French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712- 1778): The whole education of women ought to be relative to men. To please them, to be useful to them ... to make life sweet and agreeable to them.

29. Swiss Protestant theologian Karl Barth (1886-1968) said: "Woman is ontologically subordinate to man.

30. Pope Pius XII said in 1941 (He reigned I939-I958): "The pains that,since original sin, a mother has to suffer to give birth to her child only draw tighter the bonds that bind them; she loves it the more, the more pain it has cost her."

31. Dr. C. W Shedd, Presbyterian minister in Houston, Texas, wrote this advice in Letters on How to Treat a Woman (1968): "It seems to me that nearly every woman I know wants a man who knows how to love with authority. ... Our family airedale will come clear across the yard for one pat on the head. The average wife is like that. She will come across town, across the house, across the room, across to your point of view, and across almost anything to give you her love if you offer her yours with some honest approval."

Hmmmm. I remember Valentine's Day 2004 when I was ensconsed on the Ante Natal ward at the QEQM in Margate and they RAN OUT of G&A!.

I was in there 2 weeks and mostly felt really positive. Mums came in at 9pm huffing a bit, then at breakfast I met gorgeous new babies. I was awaiting a CS but the noise from the labour suite was BAAD that night.