All that matters is a healthy baby...

[foxytocin]

no it bloody well doesn't. Well that is what I thought when I heard a health visitor tell a bunch of new mums this the other day.

I would have also liked to come out of it with an intact fanjo, and not felt like a survivor from the front line 3 weeks after giving birth. Not to mention the mental scars that persist till today.

was that too much to ask?

No, it is not bloody well all that matters!!!! It's a patronizing piece of shit to say to someone who's been through hell to bring a child into this world and who still has nightmares to this day. I personally would like to choke people who say that. They may as well say "you don't bloody matter, you're only the vehicle to bring this child into the world, who gives a flying fuck how you feel and how damaged you were". I, like you, foxy, had that kind of birth. I had PND and PTSD. I was treated for it, with counselling and ADs, which helped. But to this day, I still remember how frightening DC's birth was, and for someone to tell me, or you, or anyone!!!!! that a healthy child is ALL that matters, is dismissive and offensive in the extreme. People don't have a fucking clue how birth is for some women. And before anyone thinks to flame me - I cry with happiness for my friends whose births go well, so it's not a matter of envy, or wishing a bad birth on anyone. It's simply that saying "a healthy child is all that matters" is, for me, personally, grounds for dismissing someone to the category of "clueless", even if they're otherwise quite nice.

what really got to me was people saying: "well at least you haven't got xyz"

Actually I really hoped to have no long-term problems, but that seems too much to ask.

You know, I'm fairly sure I said this to a good friend of mine once who had just gone through a very traumatic labour and had been stitched from here to eternity. I was just trying to find something positive to say. Thankfully she is a forgiving soul and still speaks to me. Having been lucky enough to have a straightforward birth myself, I just didn't understand the trauma of a bad delivery until my friend went through it. It's a crock of shit, and no-one should have their feelings, fears and pain belittled because they have a healthy baby at the end of it.

I agree with the "fleshy incubator" comment from tamlin. When I was delivering DD1 the OB treated me like a piece of meat that was in between him and his "delivery". The fact that I could talk was an inconvenience.

I had a great deal of painful damage after my first delivery, and I know that my experience hasn't been the worst on here by a long way. I thought that I would never be able to have sex again - my gynae told me that she hoped that sex would be "tolerable" 15 months after delivery, if not then there wasn't anything that she could do. As it was, I thanked my lucky stars that we were infertile as it meant that we could have another child. I couldn't have conceived naturally as I couldn't cope with the pain during sex. I was very fortunate that the second delivery eased the first scar, and that I found a very good gynae who sorted the rest out. Things still aren't right, but they are much better. And I feel like "me" again, emotionally.

And of course I would rather that I was in pain rather than DD, but it's not an either/or situation, is it? The "all that matters" comment was made to me many times by health professionals, and I was made to feel as though I didn't count as a person (or a patient) any more.

This attitude disgusts me - particularly from a HV. They should know better than anyone that giving birth is just the beginning. Then you have to start the job of caring for a newborn and possibly other siblings.... Not much fun for women who are butchered by someone who thinks a healthy baby is 'all that matters'.

Its hard enough when everything has gone smoothly but I can't begin to imagine the post-natal period if you've had an experience like MrsTittleMouse (and others) have described.

sometimes it can be an either-or situation though

an equally thoughtless friend told me that I should not have had to go through a caesarian, because I had the right to a good experience of childbirth

but ds would almost certainly have died

so in my case, definitely either-or

that kind of remark doesn't help either

because when it comes to a choice between your mental wellbeing and your baby's life- then you don't actually have a choice

and I got really annoyed by her need to present this as a choice situation

I find the "shouldn't have to go through" comment very strange - says who? God? And I agree that in rare cases there is an either/or situation. In my birth plan I explicitly consented to a crash section, or an instrumental delivery in a crash situation (depending on the position of the baby).

But I also think that a lot of HCP do have the "all that matters" attitude and that the health of the mother is dismissed in cases where there was absolutely no need. We all know of lots of situations where the midwife was set in her ways, or did things for her own convenience, or had too many women under her care to give proper care. Doctors are often much worse. In my case I had a foreign doctor (from the middle east) and I am convinced that his cultural attitudes to women were a significant factor in the treatment that he gave me (that wasn't even medically indicated!).

And even if damage to the mother is unavoidable, and completely necessary to save the baby, shouldn't that mother receive good postnatal care to make sure that any physical or emotional damage is minimised? The "all that matters" attitude allows HCPs to ignore those problems (I had to see 4 different GPs to get a referral and was told "all that matters") and makes it harder for women to ask for help. And vunerable women in pain are forced to fight tooth and nail to get any kind of treatment, and while dealing with life with a newborn, to boot.

Sorry, I hope this isn't too ranty. I know that there are lots of lovely HCPs out there doing everything that they can, and I know that I am very lucky to now have two healthy DDs. Three of our friends have lost babies at term and I have no comprehension of what they went through.

This attitude used to upset me before dd was born. My experience was more disappointing than traumatic - I wanted a home birth but dd was overdue and I eventually had to agree to go into hospital for induction. In the end, I had a section. I got this line when they were trying to persuade me to agree to be admitted and it pissed me off because it made me feel as though how I was feeling about it didn't matter.
Of course, I know that dd's welfare was the most important thing but I'd have liked some acknowledgement that it wasn't the only thing that mattered. Apart from anything else, I think it has left me with a slight lingering doubt that it needed to work out as it did.

Obviously a healthy mother and a healthy baby are important, but also important is a "good" birth experience.

Women will remember the experience for the rest of their lives, and whether you had the sort you expected or it was everything you had hoped to avoid, the people around you, the attitudes before, during and after the birth, and the level of support you receive all go a long way in making it either a nightmarish experience or one where you felt your needs and concerns were considered and addressed whenever possible.

Agree with everybody else: there is no excuse for shoddy aftercare.

I shared a room on the antenatal ward with a woman who had had to labour to give birth to two stillborn babies, and the thing that had really stuck in her mind was the complete insensitivity of the hospital. Not that she could ever have been happy about her situation, but they managed to make things even worse, and it's not as if she didn't notice.

I hate that saying too, it is not all that matters. It is easy for people to say in the grand scheme of things all that matters is a healthy baby. I had a shreaded fanjo too and having my healthy baby ( now 3 ) is doing nothing to stop my anxiety over how the hell I get this next one out ( 30wks PG)

it's not all that matters if the mother dies and leaves older children and a newborn motherless

it's not all that matters if the mother is so traumatised by the birth she suffers PND and can't care for the baby or herself

it's not all that matters if the mother is left permanently disabled or physically damaged by the birth

but that said, when dd was in real danger during the birth it was all that mattered to me, that she be alive and undamaged by the oxygen deprivation, i didn't care about anything else in those moments.

similarily when ds2 was in scbu because he inhaled my blood during the very quick intense birth i would have gladly gone back in time and suffered a thousand times more with a longer harder birth than to see him suffer like that.

so while the sentiment is expressed badly and is not always appropriate i know what it means and i've said it myself.

Out of interest cory, emkana and any other mums with children who have disabilities, does the phrase actually offend you, as you didn't end up with completely healthy babies and it could imply that an unhealthy baby wouldn't be wanted?

Surely a better phrase would be all that matters is that you end up with a baby (not the most aesthetically sounding phrase I know)

Sorry, I really should leave this thread alone - but I was thinking about this last night. What I hear when someone says "all that matters" is "if you were a good mother and really loved your baby then it wouldn't matter that you because your baby would be all the joy that you needed". I felt as though I couldn't have bonded properly with my baby because she wasn't everything in my life - I wanted to be without pain and discomfort and I wanted a normal marriage too. It really made me doubt that I loved her enough, which in retrospect is so silly, but I was so vunerable at the time.

I am going to print out this thread and give it to my GP (who is lovely) and I am going to mail it to the MW and OB who butchered me.
Well said, all.

all it proves is that you cannot reduce the experience of childbirth to one pat , succint sentence. it is far more complex than that

i add to my phrases that i loathe

which includes

'at least you did not have to push the baby out, you should be glad'

i do think people say it, as it is a general platitude and most people don;t know how to respond to birth trauma, but there is never an excuse for a HCP to say it.

nappyaddict on Wed 06-May-09 01:00:43
"Out of interest cory, emkana and any other mums with children who have disabilities, does the phrase actually offend you, as you didn't end up with completely healthy babies and it could imply that an unhealthy baby wouldn't be wanted? "

No, I actually think the phrase is about right for me. All that did matter to me was a healthy baby. I would have been prepared to have paid for that with a very high price of pain.

But I realise my attitude might be because of the nature of dcs disabilities and that this is not the same for everyone.

Their problem is not learning difficulties or seeing the world in a different way, as you do if you're on the autistic spectrum: it's chronic pain (in dd's case severe chronic pain).

So it is difficult for me to say, 'oh, but I think my baby is perfect as she is, her disability is just part of who she is, I wouldn't want her different'.

This can't be compared to what it would have been like for me to live for a year or two with the afterpain of infected stitches or whatever (I did that too actually).

Dd is 12, she's been in pain since she was 7, it is quite likely that her whole life will be like this.

Even if I had died in childbirth, I would still have had 30 odd years free of pain and fear: it's unlikely that dd will ever know what that feels like.

After all, if it was me coming home crying with pain and exhaustion at 3.30 every afternoon and going straight to bed, then crying with pain and fear the next morning when I had to get up- I wouldn't want my family to say, 'oh, but that is just part of who Cory is, we wouldn't want her different, we think she's perfect as she is'.

Ending up with a baby wasn't all that mattered to me, because 12 years later I still have to watch that baby in pain.

So no, I don't mind if someone says something to the effect that dd's body isn't perfect. That idea had occurred.

Sorry to be so miserable and negative, but on Friday I go to have my second baby diagnosed. He is the same age as dd was when it started, his pains are starting now and he knows what they mean .

I do realise that I'm on the wrong thread and the last thing I would want is to trivialise anyone's experience of PND or birth trauma. I do wish there was more support for mothers after giving birth, easier access to debriefing etc. It should be possible to provide that and adequate support for the parents of disabled children.

Bloody hell cory - that's awful.

I was going to add to this but I feel absolutely ashamed now because it seems so trite compared to Cory's experiences.

I'm so sorry for your DD cory

fuck, not sure what to say but it didn't feel right to read that and just walk away without responding

i'm so sorry for your dd and ds cory, and for you having to watch your babies suffer

i am really sorry cory, i thikn that must have been really hard to post and thank you for sharing such feelings, there is nothing to say . what condition do your chldren have? if you prefer not to say, thats ok

i do thikn that support all round is lacking, and threads like this taht hightlight it are shocking, as you do hope that things have moved on but there stil seems to be a lot of ignorance out there perpetuated by some HCPS

actually, I shouldn't have done this on this thread; it's not fair on others who want to need to vent about their own equally genuine, but different problems

I'm really sorry, folks

please do post, chequers; your experience is needed too

but thanks for all your sympathy; I did need it tonight

"my babies" are not really babies at all; as I mentioned in my post, dd is 12; but she's still "my baby" iyswim; it's still as upsetting to see her in pain

ds is 8

they both have Joint Hypermobility Syndrome (possibly Ehlers Danlos), which is a condition where your joints are loose and bend the wrong way, so you get a lot of pain just from everyday activities like walking or sitting or holding a pen (there are also other problems, like incontinence, and balancing problems, and inability to respond to pain relief)

ds is not too bad but finds it difficult to do anything much with his wrists and is beginning to find walking difficult

dd is wheelchair bound a lot of the time, and is having a bad flare up at the moment

ds hasn't been diagnosed yet, so I'm a bit fragile about that too; when I first took dd to the doctors they thought she'd been abused, and on Friday I taking ds to the same doctor who saw me after that (thankfully not the plonker who had the initial suspicions); so lots of old ghosts resurfacing

thank you cory,for explaining,especially when things are difficutl and emotional right now

i think that this thread shows that there is no right or wrong in who feels traumatised by their birth

i come into contact with far more women who have 'averagely bad' birth experiences, and the fact that nothing so awful happened, ifyou seewhat i mean, makes them feel worse for daring to be traumatised. hope that makes sense

if you feel traumatised, it was traumatic, a very fast vaginal birth can be shocking and distressing,as can a long , slow labour, or a planned c.s . trauma is in the eye and mind of who suffered it, there is no competition or right and wrong as to who is allowed to feel awful after a birth

being able to talk freely is really important, whatver the degree of trauma

that is a very good point about trauma being made worse by feeling that you have no right to be traumatised, Lulumama: I've known lots of women who've felt like that. And of course that is exactly the sort of situation where a thoughtless remark from a health professional can really tip you over the edge,