2 very interesting articles in Guardian today

[pupuce]

Found this !

Strapped to a machine, deprived of control ... the miracle of birth for British women. Survey shows that mothers' dreams of holistic experience end in hospital shock

and How to cope

I think from reading all the posts that it is fair to say everyone is different and everyone is entitled to their choice. I think the article focuses on those women who were terrified of being in hospitals. I'm sure that there are many like myself who are terrified of home delivery. Taking some of the comments from the article about being strapped to a machine and dozens of professionals examining you constantly, well this is how my first birth went but I wouldn't have had it any other way. If they had not been there and if I had not been under constant surveillance, all manner of things may have gone wrong. I had an emergency section in the end and both myself and DD were perfectly fine.

Given the imminent arrival of no.2 it's fair to say that I'm petrified coz I now know what it's like and there is no way I'd consider not being in a hospital.

Yes - choice is the issue and everyone is entitled to theirs......but between birthing baby safely, quickly and gently with a speedy recovery in your own envoironment or being "petrified" high risk of sometimes unneccessary intervention, increased likelyhood of stitches or major abdominal surgery I don't need to think much about my choice.......especially when I want my baby and I to be healthy and happy.

Hmmm, I'd have loved a quick gentle birth. Both times round. It didn't happen - even my much-loved home birth took seven bloody painful hours.

Every single tradition perpetuated by women says that childbirth is the most painful thing most of us go through. That's because of our physiology, not our attitudes. Sure, things can make a difference. But when push comes to shove, you are pushing and shoving.

totally agree mi but I do think our attitudes have changed since birth moved from home to hospital - we now have 3 generations of women who have experienced and passed on their medicalised experiences which can often create anxiety and fear in the recipient - we are becoming more anxious about birth and this has an effect on labour and birth too - other generations accepted the pain and got on with it.

hoxtonchick, I've had one of each of the sorts of births you describe, only without the induction, and I have to say I'd be inclined to go for the section in those circs. And I say that as someone who would have preferred to avoid it, I'm very much not a pro-section person!

Sorry, Hoxtonchick, squeezed you out. Is there any way of assessing your baby's overall readiness (there isn't, is there)? Otherwise a C-section might save you a lot of grief...

...and no, mish, I don't agree. I think we've accepted quite a lot of b*llocks about how if we do something 'right' we will have a painless drug-free birth, and that we ought to be aiming for that, too. Quite a few women these days are utterly shocked and amazed at how much it hurts, because they'd read about the 'powerful sensations' and how it would be like a crashing ocean wave which they must go with, not a bloody painful succession of escalating contractions.

Previous generations muttered darkly about the pain. They got on with it because they had to. But I shudder to think of the kind of butchery they endured.

Hear hear MI.

Have you seen what size early man's head was? And how big early woman's pelvis was? Respectively, tiny, and huge. Early humans had weeny little heads (with weeny brains) and huge, serving-platter shaped pelvises. Standing upright and growing bigger brains was good for us as an intelligent species but really crap for giving birth. As a species, we used to be well designed to give birth vaginally, but you could argue (and I would!) that this is no longer true. Childbirth is seen as painful and scary in all cultures as far as I know - nothing to do with it being medicalised. With my first baby being transverse and placenta praevia we would both have died without some much maligned high-tech intervention (a c-section). I am all for choice, and I think that women who want homebirths etc should be given every possible support, but let's not forget that childbirth is not risk free.

With respect aloha I you have had only one type of birth expereince - I value greatly the opinion of those who have experienced section and vaginal, home and hospital.

My second birth was an amazing experience. But certainly not pain-free. I finally 'got' what I had been told in the NCT classes I went to with my pregnancy - ie that your body knows what to do and will take over. But I do feel amazingly lucky that I had that experience. It certainly isn't the norm and I think that much of NCT doesn't prepare you for that. My first birth was horrendous, I was totally unprepared for it despite reading lots and going to NCT and parentcraft classes and it took the experience of having my daughter to feel better about it - I still feel guilty though that secretly I feel that I finally did it 'properly' - which I know is rubbish. I also agree with Aloha - we are so much better nourished now that babies are much bigger nowadays - my two were 9lb 9 and 9lb 13. I am 5ft 6 and not very big!

I don't think you need to have experienced childbirth at all to know it's widely known to be painful! Just look at the Bible saying 'in pain and suffering shalt thou bring forth children'.

Opting for giving birth at home does not guarantee a quick labour. It does not guarantee a gentle birth. Or a quick recovery. From my own experience, it's a nicer place to give birth. That counts for a great deal, and I am very glad I had the option. But it is far from being everything.

sorry meant to say 'my first pregnancy' - must learn to preview.

What on earth has my 'one type of birth experience' got to do with anything? Evolution has made childbirth trickier and riskier. And I and my son would have died. These things are both true even if I had had gone on to have a dozen more children.

And like you, I didn't have to think much about my choice, as I wanted us both to come out of the birth alive.

Does not guarantee those things mi but gives you a much better chance if those things are important to you?

The evolution of birth in humans has involved a series of transitions.
The major changes were:

TRANSITION TO BIPEDALISM;
CHANGE IN PELVIS SHAPE AND FETAL PRESENTATION

1. Non-human primates: Non-human primates, who usually walk quadrupedally (on 4 limbs), have relatively easy and short labor, and many primates give birth in isolation and do not require assistance from others. The pelvic opening is usually large, and there is usually plenty of room for the infant?s head to pass through the birth canal, especially in brachiators (primates that swing through trees). The infant?s head usually emerges in the posterior position (the back of the head against the mother?s sacrum [the base of the vertebral column] and the face upward). The mother can pull the infant out without help, or the infant may pull itself out.

Illustration of a monkey giving birth

2. Humans:

Humans, who walk upright, have evolved a differently shaped pelvis, with a narrowed pelvic inlet. In second stage of labor, the fetus has a series of twists and turns to maneuver through the cervix and the vagina. Labor is much longer and more painful than in other primates. The head usually emerges in the anterior position (face against the sacrum, skull against the pubic bone), and it is not possible for the laboring woman to pull out the infant without the risk of hurting its spine and neck. Extracting the infant upwards when its head emerges would go against the normal flexion of the infant?s spine. Therefore, the woman giving birth usually needs assistance in easing out the infant.

About 2-3 million years ago, primate brain size and complexity increased, more than doubling from australopithecines to humans. This increase is called encephalization. Infants with large heads (and their mothers) were at increased risk during birth simply because there was greater chance of prolonged and obstructed labor, leading to oxygen deficiency and possibly death.

Absolutely Aloha - because it was a medical condition.

meant in answer to you not thinking about your choice - don't think anyone was disputing your point about early man.

Er, yes, I did grasp that fact. But it wasn't a medical condition unconnected to pregnancy and birth - it was a direct result of pregnancy and totally natural, and a natural vaginal birth would have killed us both. I'm simply pointing that childbirth can be inherently dangerous in a way that some natural birth advocates seems reluctant to acknowledge, and that that medical intervention during birth is often demonised but it saved my life and my son's life. I don't think you can simply dismiss my experience because it doesn't fit your hypothesis.

not that I think it bears any relevance to the original dicussion

On the contrary, I think it's extremely relevant.

i would never deny dangers but still don't see how that fits in with the discussion?

are we not discussing the article anymore?

Well, for a start, you seem to be implying that if everyone stayed at home we'd all have lovely 'holistic experiences' and that women are betrayed by medical intervention. The original article is a survey of women saying they found birth scarier and more painful than they ever expected. I am pointing out that evolution has made normal birth both more tricky and more painful than it was for our ancestors, and so it's not surprising that women who have been misled into believing that birth will just be a question of breathing out their baby are likely to feel as if they have done something wrong and even feel guilty when they find giving birth painful, complicated or even dangerous. Hence all the dreadful guilt so many women feel about having pain relief or even for having lifesaving caesarians. Birth is not risk free. It can kill you. Medical intervention can save you. I personally think if more women went into giving birth with realistic attitudes it might well be helpful.

I am very grateful that I never 'dreamed of a holistic experience" otherwise I might be one of those shellshocked, guilty and sad mothers. I was immensely grateful for my high tech birth.