Caesarean for "stupid" reasons?

[GloriaInEleusis]

Following on from this thread, I just wondered how many people have caesareans for stupid reasons?

I've had two, one crash and one planned. Neither was for a stupid reason.

I think Gloria is right that we, as women, should have no sense of collective guilt about the cost of reasonable Caesareans to the NHS. It does waste an awful lot of money in other areas and and better to spend money on a successful operation than deal with the cost of infant disabilities/pelvic floor damage etc as a result of a traumatic vaginal birth.

I also agree with the points about later births perhaps being more satisfying. Maybe this is because we gain in confidence and work out what is best for us, be it a drug free home birth or medically supervised hospital delivery. Having said that, my first birth was by far the best day of my life (despite failed ventouse, forceps, stitches etc) because I was so overcome by shock and awe that I had managed to produce a healthy, beautiful little baby. Lord knows what I was expecting but there we go.

I think Daisymoo explains excellently why this is such a tricky issue. Yes, in an ideal world, we would all be offered absolute choice, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live within the constraints of an over stretched NHS system, and therefore things have to be prioritised. And as Starlight points out, people have different coping thresholds. Eg: I have fillings at the dentist without anaesthetic because I prefer a few minutes pain to being numbed up for a couple of hours. Other people would find that idea awful and would opt for pain relief. That's where the debate becomes difficult, because I suppose there's a natural tendency for people to want to argue for whatever works for them. It's human nature isn;t it? If you cope with birth without an epidural, you're less likely to see that as a 'necessity'. If you have a high tech birth with drugs, you're more likely to think that this kind of birth is the norm. I do think though, that the Csection debate moves into a different league,as we're talking major surgery and all the implications of that, and personally I would feel very uneasy about a culture that accepted that as a viable alternative to VB without a clear medical need.

Following on about later births being more satifying and traumatic experiences scarring for life...
Just wanted to say that after my 'remedial' elective CSec 3yrs ago, I'm now free of flashbacks, panic attacks and midwife-phobia and am considering (just considering mind) going for a VBAC if I ever have a third baby. Now the emotional pain has gone, I feel like I've been able to reset my brain to accept the 'default' birth method as something I might be able to survive.
Starlight, have you looked here?

Gloria, I have not said anywhere that people being able to conceive is a medical necessity.

What I said, as I have typed about 5 times now, is that a medical necessity is when someone cannot do what is expected to be routinely possible for everyone else, ie conceive.

Conception is something many of us can do without any need for intervention, just like walking is which was your hip replacement argument.

It becomes a medical necessity when it cannot be done without intervention. NOT when the only other option is fatality.

Starlight. I am sorry you have such awful lasting effects of your vb.

I would however suggest that birth trauma is equally as likely with CS as VB so having a CS may not have changed that in the slightest.

There are a number of posters that know much more than I WRT birth trauma, I hope you get some good advice from them and are able to work through it.

The problem with people's perceptions of cs is not just the perception of it being a 2nd class form of birth but during the recovery period being constantly asked, why can't you do that when it comes to any form of normal activity e.g. pushing a pram. It's not helped by the fact that some people do recover very quickly and are held up to you as "so and so was fine". Adding these to any lingering feelings of failure and normal hormonal disruptions at that point is not a good combination.

The issue of being given a choice to have a natural vb with "fluffy" features - as in being the only choice vs an elective is a bit skewed. The usual reasons (other than medical ones) that some people give for wanting an elective is that they are scared of birth/labour/tearing/all of the above. That's a case where education and a doula may definitely help. If you're going to give the "choice" of an elective then all the facts would have to be given as well of potential effects on future pregnancies, operational complications for both you and the baby.

Some people have great births either by vb or cs. Some don't. At the end of the day a lot of it is due to luck but having gone through an emergency c/s if anyone told me they were considering a c/s on grounds of it's easier I'd definitely try and persuade them otherwise.

The people who frown and make me like I failed because I had a section are typically people that have had lovely natural deliveries, even a breech big baby. It is the look on in their eyes when they say "oh, a section hey? well, better luck next time"

I was even asked whether I had even tried to have a VC or did I go straight for a section?

I have a friend who had a natural delivery, followed by a section. She is pg again and she wants a VABC, explaing to me that when she had her section she didn't feel that rush of love and empowerment after having second child. Leaving me feeling that if I am never blessed enough to get pregnant, I am less of a mother because I didn't have a sucessful VB.

i had people saying "Oh Caeserian -that's ashame unsaid implication being i was somehow lesser mum had failed actually the shoulfd have congratulated me on medical skills and life saving intervention.

so always thought why is it a shame. i have a beautiful baby, im all mum me i am so WTF is the problemo..ANSWER: No problemo

ScottishMummy, I've always been under the impression that when people have had an em cs and they're told 'oh what a shame' it is mroe because it sounds like a terrible time. The simple word emergency makes it sound horrendous.

I have never come across anyone who said anything other than 'I'm not surprised' when they found out I had an elective CS after an emergency CS (and a fiddle with all my other innards whilst they were in there!)

If anything I've had stranger remarks when I have said I'm having a VBA2C this time, as if because the consultant would be happy for me to have an el cs I must be mad to do anything else.

I had two Caesareans because I was utterly terrified of childbirth - not sure that this isn't a reasonably rational viewpoint given all the hideous stories I had heard about natural birth. I paid for both myself, and was not a burden on the NHS. Freedom of choice is the name of the game, and I did grow heartily sick of people judging me for it. Would the mummy-police prefer that my child had nearly died before a caesarean; would that get me an approving nod and some brownie points? Women should support other mums, not put them down. It's hard enough as it is, without women all ranking each others' mothering skills according to how much they suffered to give birth.

Oh, also, please do not take offence at this because it isn't meant offensively, but when you have a CS, it is the surgeon who has done the job of birth, rather than you iyswim, so I think that's probably why people say 'well done' after a vb.

lol, scottish. If people were to imply that having both my dcs having been born by cs were "a shame", I actually secretly feel very special. Weird, I know, but I would never let on, especially if the other person had a vb. I play along in this shameful farce.

so victoria, if mothers have their babies delivered by forceps and ventouse, again it is the doctor/medic who delivered the baby? Shame, all that pushing for nowt.

Better send that surgeon a congratulatory card then.

could we not consider labour to be a small part of the process of having a child? Surely the mode of their arrival is miniscule compared with the 9 months of carrying and however long trying to conceive? Why should this all be diluted into the 'what a shame' approach given so regularly to mums who have had a CS?

blueshoes, maybe, I don't know, I'm just saying why I think people say 'Well done' to mothers who have natural births more than those who have a CS. As a CS is normally because of the need of medical intervention, I can understand why people feel they should say 'oh, poor you' rather than 'well done'.

Personally I would probably feel more sympathy for the mothers who have gone through hours of labour only to be rushed down to surgery and then have to go through a Cs as well.

I've been at two friends births and one of them was able to push baby out herself, the other did all the labour and the pain and the pushing and just at the last minute was taken down to surgery for an em CS, of course I was proud of both of them, but I did feel more sympathy with the second.

victorian, I see what you mean.

Some mothers, however, not wanting the worst case scenario of pushing, followed by stuck in birth canal, ventouse, forceps, em cs (with baby being forcibly dragged back up the birth canal by the surgeon from the sunroof) sensibly decide to go straight for the generally safe and controlled elective.

These mothers don't want any post-delivery sympathy. They don't want to end up there in the first place. I with those.

ELF1981, please remember it isn't a rush of 'love and empowerment' that women feel after childbirth, it is JUST CHEMICALS! That huge endorphin overload functions purely to addict you to the concept of going through it all over and over again and preserving the human race. Plus I suppose it would help you if you need to get up immediately and start running from a sabretoothed tiger.
I'd imagine if you've never felt it (like me)you don't know what you're missing and you know it makes no difference to your baby. Don't hold it against your friend, she was probably gutted to miss that big hit .

LOL i also omitted to mention the pause after "thats a shame...followed by" wise words of wisdom and gems like

do you feel disapointed/cheated
o so you have not actually given birth
shame you could not do it properly

LOL being described felt like faulty defective goods - not fit for purpose

Scottishmummy, it's so strange that some people feel that a Caesarean is not giving birth but you are correct, some people do indeed seem to feel that way. One of the first posts I read when joining MN was to a successful vbacer, congratulating her with the words "well done, you birthed your baby" as if she had not achieved this with her previous Caesarean. Surely giving birth means producing a new life however you do it?

'Do you feel disapointed/cheated'
I don't have a problem with that one actually, I certainly did feel disappointed and cheated out of the fantasy VB, of the idea that it might be a beautiful experience. Isn't that what we all want to begin with? It's such a lottery .

Has everybody seen this
natural c.section link

Well I've never understood these silly women who go forth into childbirth thinking it will be oh so natural, no drugs, no effort, no problem!
I have so many friends who have perfectly controlled and organised lives and they just think, ok I'm going to have a baby this year,that will just be as perfect as everything else!

I think too many woman head towards labour not having been shown ways to minimise intervention with results such as assisted delivery or ECS. They end up having horrific memories of childbirth and (quite rightly) are adament that an elective is the way to go for DC2.

I had a fab NCT class teacher. On her advice we were all out walking for 1 hour a night from 7mths onwards. We were massaging our bits 3times daily, doing special stretching excercises and yoga.

She told us never to get on the bed unless there was a danger to either us or baby and to insist on being examined standing up. I'm so glad I stuck to my guns on this and that I stayed at home until 1/2 hour before they were born. Of the 10 couples, only 1 needed intervention.

Now I'm in no way suggesting that it's anyones fault that they needed an ECS. Just that I'm sure it's avoidable for some women.
We should be educating pg woman that VB is hard work and bloody painful but not something to be frightened off. We should be offering techniques to avoid an ECS BUT if due to medical reasons (including extreme fear) it is required then there should be little opposition.

What I'm trying to say is that birth choice should be respected but surely a drop in the rate of CS would be a good thing esp ECS.

By ECS I mean emergency not elective.

you try insisting that you can move around and stand up when you are crammed into a room where there is only room for a bed and the gigantic "life of mars" era monitor they insist on strapping to you 24-7. you try doing squsts when your midwife wants to dose you up with pethidine so she can get some rest

But that's the thing W&C. They cannot force you to do any of those things and you and your birth partner need to be clear on that and insist of doing what feels right for you.

Why do so many first time mums go in so early? This often means they are in for hours and hours! I was literally screaming in agony but I kept remembering how my class tutor had said that I'd be far more comfortable screaming at home with DH than I would be stuck in a tiny room and she was right.

I'm just saying there's so many ways to make VB a more positive experience for women. Some women will always end up needing a CS regardless of how they prepare/face labour. I just think a horrific birth experience is avoidable for some.