By the time my kids start school, my birth choices will matter about as much as my O-level results.

[beansprout]

Is the conclusion that a friend and I came to over lunch yesterday. And I say that as someone who is 22 weeks preg and deliberating over whether or not to have a c-section or not.

Anyone have a view on this?

Thanks. I'm really not trying to belittle anyone who has had a terrible time. It's just me trying to get over myself as I am boring anyone who will listen in RL with my current dilemma!!!

Was not my intention to upset anyone, I can see how this could be read as me being flippant and I'm sorry. I do think that given the PTSD and joy to behold ends of the spectrum aside, that the significance of this process does diminish with time and that's all I was trying to say.

i don;t thikn you were trying to belittle anyone

On a behavioural optometry course I was on recently, we were given some interesting statistics. Like that 82% of dyslexic children had had either an emergency CS, forceps delivery or other foetal distress. Personally I had 3 CS's and I do wonder whether they had anything to do with ds1's ADD or ds2's dypsraxia and I wonder how ds3's emergency CS will affect his learning, he's only 2 now.
Having said that, I don't know that dwelling on all this is healthy. I can't put the clock back now and insist on delivering ds1 naturally. If I had known then what I know now, that's what I would have done. And ds4 will have to be born by CS, in my case it will be safer, given my history.

I honestly don't know.

My first birth went rather badly. And I do think I was treated with a fair amount of respect during it; it just went pear-shaped. And afterwards I decided that hell, it was a few days out of my life (we're talking a long labour here) and that It Didn't Matter.

My second birth was a very, very, very straightforward and relatively short (seven hour) home birth. And I felt pretty damn fabulous afterwards. And I have to admit, and I do not like making this admission, that it felt as if it 'healed' my first one in a big way.

The thing is, neither birth was greatly under my control; the first one was pretty vile because, well, it was. (I had amazing community midwives, loads of support for staying at home as long as I wished, and so on. It just went wrong.) So I don't want to feel bad about the first one, because of the implications, iyswim.

BTW I still resent having such a crap German teacher for my German O level .

100...I think it's one of the many ways we deal with it...well, everyone has different "strategies" and in the end it's whatever works for you.
at your m/w leaving the theatre in tears...not very proffessional I would think!
Es came out blue and not breathing , but luckily he came too quickly...but even a few seconds feel like an age...like I said though, I never ever saw that experience as a bad Birth or anything...only after ys, when trying to make sense of it all, did I come to the realisation, that it wasn't perfect by any means...

You can bore me beansprout if you like.

But I had two bad births, and then one very jolly elective section, so I am probably so experienced at bad births I'm almost immune.

I would say that my first labour/birth has affected how I feel about birth.

that;s interesting chipmonkey

DS was em c.s and has dyslexia

will be interesting to see what happens with DD, normal VB

That's a good point MI. It has me too hasn't it? What with all the means to an end stuff.

Girls are less likely to be dyslexic either way, lulu!

thanks , didn;t know that `!

On Woman's hour a while back they had a grandmother, mother, daughter all who had given birth. The mother who had given birth in the 1960s or 70s even now is pained to think about it because it all went so badly. So I do think the images and events that occur around births are something a lot of women carry with them for the rest of their life. They imprint themselves on to your psyche and to that extent very much do matter.

Interesting point about the ADD/dyslexia being triggered by the type of birth. A friend of mine is convinced her eldest son's dyslexia and behavioural problems were caused by his difficult ventouse delivery. Apparently the cranial osteopath's first question was "Is this a ventouse baby?" because he saw so many of them.

Didn't know about the emergency c-section link but that sort of makes sense too, although none of this has been proved.

However, if you think about children you know with ADD, it's often the eldest in the family, which is more likely to be an instrumental birth.

hmmm I have to say that I don't feel affected by the manner of my dc's births

they were both cs and I was just relieved to get them out safely

I could put up with the scar and the yucky overhanging belly but the thought that it has impacted on the ds's is tough. I can always have lipo!

There's a fair bit of research linking autism to birth problems too. Apparently it's almost impossible to get funding to take it further though

There is a website called Caesarean Voices which is about the effects of CS birth on the babies as they grow...

Michel Odent has very plausible theories about Primal Health. I've got the book and it make a lot of sense!

Jean Sutton teaches about OFP, in her books and at workshops, and how even a brow presentation, for example, can cause physical damage late into life. I always wondered (from age 5) why I was never very supple. When she started saying that a baby which is pushed into the pelvis in a bad position, and so spends a long time not having it's head tucked in and so the tissues in the back of the neck are not stretched, then is extracted by CS and will grow up not being able to touch it's toes a light suddenly came on. I asked ds, aged 14, (brow presentation, augmented labour, emCS) if he could touch his toes and he said no. I asked my mum more about my birth, induction for PE, difficult birth - explains my lack of suppleness. My sis was an elCS, and she is having some major mental health issues (which has been exacerbated by circumstances). Jean also feels she can tell an elCS baby by looking at the person it grows into (from 45 years experience) although there will always be exceptions and life experience does affect us also....

However, we can't change the trauma a baby has already received so we must not beat ourselves up about it.

But we CAN take our babies and children for cranial osteopathy to minimise the effects, we CAN teach our daughters (and sons) about normal birth. My mum did not tell me about mine for fear of scareing me, whereas it has finally explained so much to me now that I know.

The way that the current system is affecting women's childbirth experience is MORE important than your exams. It affects the woman and then her daughter/DIL, and so on down the line. As we tend to learn by example. If your mum has wonderful births and teaches you that you are a wonderful birthing mama you are more likely to continue in this belief. If you are taught that it is a terrible, painful, humiliating thing, you are more likely to have no faith in yourself and so follow the self fullfilling prophecy.

I don't believe that birth is just a matter of a few hours/days out of your life at all, it is a psychological, life process that we hand down through the generations.

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a sermon... but it's what I believe and am passionate about. My emCS was 14 years ago, I am affected still, my VBAC pushed me further along the road to where I am now and I wouldn't be the person I am now if it wasn't for those experiences. My qualifications have little impact on my life now (apart from being well educated) and I do not earn a living at all, let alone one related to my qualifications (5 Scottish Highers!)

Just my thoughts on the topic, I respect other posters points of view but these are mine.

What's the maximum age for cranial osteopathy BTW?

yes, I absolutely agree with those who say that it is not so much what happens to you that is so crucial, but rather how you were treated, whether you felt in control/consulted/giving informed or passive/a victim/out of control - these are the things that have an ongoing effect imo.

I asked my mum about her birth experiences after I had my dc and she was almost in tears remembering what a horrible time she had with both births, mainly due to how she was treated, the lack of control, not being informed of what was going on... I doubt she'd be in tears about any of her exams...

Chipmonkey, I don't think it's ever too late, but the earlier the better! I am actually considering going for treatment myself once I have some disposable income, (am 40) as I have always felt there to be 'something wrong' but couldn't put a finger on it. I would like to try a chiropractor first as they are more gentle than an osteopath, have been to make enguiries with a local one.... Am very interested in the Whole body treatment idea, maybe it's my old age, although I'm sure I was interested when younger.... just never had the money to pay for treatment. Wonder if I should take ds too?...

Anyway, Cranial Osteopathy for an infant would be first on my list after birth as it seemed so logical after Jean Sutton explained how the neck and jaw, in particular, could be affected by being contracted on when head not in a good place in the pelvis. I really wish I could find good links to help explain this.... Jean said she was hoping her granddaughter was going to get a website done for her as part of some educational project. But a lot of things that mum's worry about, like colic or baby refusing to feed from one particular breast could be explained by some physical trauma in labour which could then easily be rectified by some osteopathic or chiropractic treatment. Worth trying, in my book, cos if it solves a problem fine and if not, well then you've explored that avenue and can eliminate it. Dyswim?

Yes, makes sense. All of mine were colicky too!

You know, Chipmonkey, that a VBA3C is not out of the question? Have you explored this option at all? There are quite a few VBA3C posters on this group and even a VBA4Cer.

Obviously, I don't know enough of your history and it is entirely your decision to make. Have you also seen this link about Natural Caesarean? You can make another CS as great an experience as possible, even scrubbing up yourself to lift baby out if that's what you'd like.

I appreciate that it must be hard work looking after your dc, so don't be too hard on yourself thinking about their CS deliveries. Continue being the great mum that you are and make sure you get some pampering as often as possible as you deserve it!

Aw, thanks, Klaw! Unfortunately on an attempted VBAC on ds2, my scar ruptured! So it has made me very hesitant about trying it again. I think dh in particular would be worried sick for the entire pg if I even considered it. My very first CS with ds1 was a botched job and I think, may have resulted in a weak scar. Also during the delivery I was given synotocin which is not advised during VBAC, which obviously didn't help!
In any case, I'm in Ireland. The public system would not permit me to try VBAC and there is a shortage of independant midwives, even if one did agree to take me on, which I doubt!

Ah a previous rupture, I see! Yes, it's something that I believe should rule out another VBAC but I would still do more research into it if it was something someone wanted to consider. You obviously have decided it's to be ruled out and that's fair enough.

So, you can just ensure that you make the most of your CS experiences and plan the best one for you.

Would you be willing to tell me more about your rupture? Is it in the archives? Sorry to be so nosey, but I tend to be a sponge with all things VBAC related and want to learn!

I imagine you will be putting in your CS birth plan this time that they should do a tummy tuck at the time?