1 in 3 first time mother's need forceps or vaccum

[KayBM]

Just stumbled across leaflet on rcog site...it was published in April 2020, so too late for me! But it says 1 in 3 women who are first time mother's need forceps or vaccum. Pretty sure there should be a bit of discussion about this with midwife...

The leaflet also says that for women who don't want an assisted birth they should consider a caeserean.

Just wondering if any first time mother's out there have been told this? Do you think women should be told this? Anyone think this should be on the NHS site too?

Anyone else think that a natural birth is highly unlikely for a first time mother? I wonder what the induction rates and c section rates are for first time mother's too?

I had a no intervention VB with dc1 (dc2 was the elective CS). Personally I preferred the VB & recovered much quicker. She was back to back but turned at the last minute thankfully.

Pregnancy alone does damage to the pelvic floor. My aunt only ever had CS and a prolapse.

I had a ventouse delivery with DC 1, it was horrific, I had an episiotomy which was stitched up too tightly by my (private) consultant and was in a lot of pain for weeks after the birth.

When I was pregnant with DC2 I had nightmares about the birth so insisted on a CS. The anaesthetist forgot to sign off on pain relief and I was left for 30 hours after the CS with no pain medication.

With DC3 I tried a different hospital and consultant and said I would like to have at least one birth I could look back on without recoiling in horror. I had a CS and it was amazing, I was incredibly well looked after and didn't feel the slightest twinge of pain. I was up and about the following morning.

I really wish I had gone with the CS in the new hospital from the beginning.

Not in the U.K. btw

@babychange12 fab thanks, I’ll have a look

At least my baby is really healthy and we're alive. For that I am thankful to the maternity staff.
This is part of the problem. Nobody likes to complain about the care they recieved because we are led to feel that having a "healthy baby" at the end is all that matters. The mums are treated as almost irrelevant. Oh you have PTSD, lasting stress incontinence and a prolapse? Well you can't complain because you have a healthy baby. These problems are not inevitable and maternity staff should take responsibility, find out what contributed to the "need" for an instrumental birth and take steps to mitigate it for future labouring women.

Of course they don’t tell people this. They also do symphisotomies. It’s mentioned on most trusts pathways.

Even if you note in your birth plan - no instruments and no episiotomy they will do what they want at the time.

As soon as you enter the door in labour, it’s down to what the midwife/consultant wants to do. Not you.

I know a few folk who have had forceps and were refused epidurals.

being delivered vaginally is associated with a lower risk of immune disorders in babies (allergies etc)

Breastfeeding is associated with an increased risk of allergies so 🤷‍♀️

You could go through all that hard work only to bf and raise their odds of allergies again!

That's why I think information overload is not a good thing, it's all too nuanced.

Even if you note in your birth plan - no instruments and no episiotomy they will do what they want at the time.

Sometimes there is no alternative, do you really think they intervene purely for the fun of it?

@wolfgirrl

Brainwashed much.

@Wolfgirrl this is the way I think. I wish I didnt need interventions but I know they intervened because there was a medical reason for doing so. I only wish someone has explained to me afterwards what happened, or had told me about instrumental births before. I paid for an NCT class for it to be mentioned briefly and 80% of their time being spent talking about water births and bouncing on balls. I think birth needs to be spoken of in a more medical way, and women treated after like they underwent a medical procedure. My stitches were literally never checked by anyone (would that happen if you were sliced in any other procedure? Nope) , and not a single midwife or doctor spoke to me about me after my birth.

Pregnancy alone does damage to the pelvic floor. My aunt only ever had CS and a prolapse

Vaginal birth is an additional risk factor for prolapse/pelvic floor issues. Instrumental birth still further.

I agree they don’t intervene for the fun of it, though I can imagine in some cases they are quick to do so as any professional’s judgment can be off. But these are interventions which can be avoided if women are permitted to elect a section if they wish.

I was asked at the hospital why on earth I had taken such a big risk having a home birth. I'd no idea the danger I'd put me and baby in ☹️

This is not on you @KayBM It sounds like you were failed by medical staff on many occasions - your midwife not giving you the risk assessment stats on home birth, the ambulance being delayed, not being given the option of C section instead of Kiellands which are considered very dangerous. Once you are feeling well I would recommend meeting with a midwife to talk through your birth and have a chance to understand what happened and why. In our trust this is called "birth afterthoughts".

@RoosterPie I haven't denied that. my point was pregnancy itself causes damage.

@RoosterPie

Vaginal birth is a much bigger risk factor for prolapse. My forceps delivery was one where the baby was still high, I could have refused but didn't know that a c section was a reasonable alternative. Instead I was told baby was low and when I asked my midwife antenatally, if there was any alternative to forceps she basically implied there wasn't. A bit more information and I would have been spared a very traumatic forceps delivery where baby isn't that low. I would have refused them and they would have had to give me an EMCS.

@weepingwillow22
Referenced a study from 2016/17 where it says about half of forceps are other than low...where they may be real choices between those and an EMCS. I have read since looking up Kiellands that some obstetricians say there is no need for midforceps deliveries now. Unless mum wants forceps of course!

@bilabongg ok not sure why that’s relevant to this thread then. There is an issue which I have personally experienced when requesting an elective section where doctors tell women it is the pregnancy that does the damage and underplay the relevance of the method of birth. It matters to be clear.

I was aware of this stat, as I discussed it with my obgyn when planning the birth. I have hip problems, so there was a lot of discussion about whether to try natural or go straight to c section (I chose the latter in the end, as she said that it was very possible that I’d need forceps or vacuum and in that situation they wouldn’t be able to protect my hips).

But I am not in the UK and am honestly quite relieved to have had my babies abroad.

@UnderTheBus

Thank you. That makes me feel a lot better. I do want a birth debrief and intend on having one. The birth was truly terrifying.

My poor baby came out shocked from the forceps, they must have used two sets of forceps at least because it says rotational forceps incl. Kiellands on my notes. The doctor who delivered my baby never came to speak to me beforehand and the anaesthetist was the only one who came and spoke to me. I had a panic attack in theatre.

One of my midwives came to hospital but wouldn't stay and I begged her. Literally begged... I was just left with no support at all.

Thank you for your kind words 💐

Breastfeeding is associated with an increased risk of allergies so 🤷‍♀️

In one study. The NHS website says, of the study:
we do not know if breastfeeding has directly caused the risk increase because unmeasured hereditary, health and environmental factors could be influencing the link
even if there is a true direct link, the absolute risk increase was small at only around 3%, which may be negligible when balanced against the benefits of breastfeeding
any discussion around relation to age of food introduction has limited relevance; the study has not questioned whether babies had food before 6 months, and weaning is not advised until 6 months of age anyway
we do not know anything about the type of food allergy – only that all of those examined required attendance at an outpatient clinic
the study is in a Japanese population, which may have distinct dietary practices and other characteristics meaning the findings cannot easily be applied to the UK or other populations

www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/evidence-breastfeeding-ups-food-allergies-risks-not-clear-cut/

Many other studies have found breastfeeding to be protective against allergies:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/news-and-research/baby-friendly-research/infant-health-research/infant-health-research-allergies/amp/

But, even if breastfeeding does actually increase risk of allergy, it has no bearing on this discussion. If we take, for argument's sake, the idea that formula feeding protects against allergies and vaginal birth also does, then vaginal birth and breastfeeding would still be protective compared to c section and breastfeeding. Thus the vaginal birth may still have conferred benefits.

www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20191114/vaginal-birth-breastfeeding-reduce-allergies-asthma

@roosterpie I think it is relevant, as I don't think there is a great awareness here around what pregnancy & birth can do to a women's body.

My inlaws are French & they really push the benefits of pelvic floor exercises before & after birth.

No one told me instruments can be used during a CS & like I said upthread my dc2 needed a ventouse.

Wish I'd known this at the time. No warning and brushed over at the 'class' provided by the NHS. I had an extremely long and traumatic birth ending in episiotomy, ventouse and retained placenta needing intervention. It was truly awful and I will never do it again. I wish I'd been told this.

@sherbetmelon

How long ago did you give birth? I had the same experience of not getting any information.

@fourplasticrings

Disingenously cut and pasted, the actual NHS report says this:

They found that exclusively breastfed babies had a 50% greater chance of having a food allergy compared with never breastfed babies. However, allergies were uncommon, affecting only 5-10% of babies, so this reflected only around a 3% absolute risk increase.

So for an individual, they have a 50% greater risk of allergies if breastfed. That seems quite significant to me.

For a caesarean it is twice the risk, so higher than that. But both are quite considerable increases really.

Since giving birth, I have been massively pro giving information to women about childbirth.

I gave birth within 3 weeks of 4 other friends.

2/5 had an EMCS in the end
4/5 had forceps

Surely if it's that common then more should be said about it?

@Wolfgirrl
At no point have I said that anyone should go against medical advice. I have clearly stated that interventions have a place IF medically necessary. No I am not a doctor it is possible (gasp!) for non doctors to become knowledgeable in areas if they spend years researching and attending courses/ education in that field.
It is a fact that early intervention In labour / pre labour leads to more intervention. More women should be come aware of this and learn how to avoid unnecessary intervention if they wish to lessen the risks of csection and assisted delivery.
Sometimes it’s unavoidable. But also sometimes it is completely avoidable.

Why the f* do you keep mentioning whale music. Extremely condescending once again. Hypnobirthing has nothing to do with whale music. If you had actually looked into it, it’s about reducing the fear around childbirth.

There is a currently huge fear around childbirth generally speaking in 1st world countries. This has arisen because over the last 100 years, whilst medicine has saved many lives and provided pain relief, this has come at a cost to women in labour.
50 years ago, women were told to get on their backs (still are in some cases) and had their legs in stirrups. As mentioned from other posters, men took the lead in birthing. Women 50 years ago did what they were told by and large. Most people did not question the doctor then. Husbands waited outside or in another place entirely. Women had no birthing support, on their own and were largely not asked or considered. It’s a fact that women were shaved with a razor and given an enema routinely on entry to the birthing room! Take a look at twilight sleep in birthing. Absolutely horrific. Whilst we have come a heck of a long way From that it’s still a long way to go.
Natural unassisted birth is possible for many more women who get it currently. The terrible part of it is women don’t realise this.
Women like you currently portray birth as something to be feared. Something to ‘go through’ your pelvis is too small. The baby too big. Epidurals and csections are normal and to be expected.
It is perfectly possible to have a wonderful and amazing birth experience. I have had them and my sisters have had 3 each. No interventions and the last was at home with the midwife arriving for the last 10 mins.
Women, if you have a risk free pregnancy, please research all you can about natural intervention free birth. Make an informed decision and arm yourself with facts and choices. You do not have to be crippled in fear as many women are.

I've had four babies, and never needed any intervention at all. No tears, episiotomies, nothing. But I think I'm in the minority amongst my friends and family. My aunt had a very traumatic first birth which involved forceps with no pain relief as there was no time. It put her off having any more children.

@Time2change2

What would you describe as an 'unnecessary intervention'?