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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

1 in 3 first time mother's need forceps or vaccum

382 replies

KayBM · 22/05/2020 19:25

Just stumbled across leaflet on rcog site...it was published in April 2020, so too late for me! But it says 1 in 3 women who are first time mother's need forceps or vaccum. Pretty sure there should be a bit of discussion about this with midwife...

The leaflet also says that for women who don't want an assisted birth they should consider a caeserean.

Just wondering if any first time mother's out there have been told this? Do you think women should be told this? Anyone think this should be on the NHS site too?

Anyone else think that a natural birth is highly unlikely for a first time mother? I wonder what the induction rates and c section rates are for first time mother's too?

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GrumpyHoonMain · 22/05/2020 23:25

There's a gynaecologist who says forceps are the biggest risk factor for prolapse

Not all forceps - rotational forceps. They aren’t used in many countries now because of the risk of long term damage to the mother.

Megan2018 · 22/05/2020 23:29

My NCT class was very detailed on instrumental delivery and I felt very well informed.
My birth plan specifically prioritised a section over instruments as it was something I wanted to avoid.

I was high risk for intervention as FTM, over 40 with GD. But my induction failed and I gave birth quickly and without help (I’d say easily but it wasn’t easy!!)

But my NCT group had straightforward births too and I can’t believe we were that much of a rarity!

KayBM · 22/05/2020 23:33

@Fourplasticrings

Maybe someone else on the thread will find a breakdown for us of overall stats?

I don't know personally if they've removed the emergency c sections from that- I see what you're saying there. We would probably like to think that...I would. Before I gave birth, I had total faith that I was being given information I needed and wanted. However, I am questioning of that now, yes due to my circumstances and others around me who have helpfully shared their stories with me since giving birth.

Anyone have overall stats?

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FourPlasticRings · 22/05/2020 23:38

Anyone else think that a natural birth is highly unlikely for a first time mother?

I interpreted natural as meaning vaginal without instruments, sorry if that was a misinterpretation. I still think it's not highly unlikely to avoid it though. In my NCT class, from eight of us, five had births without intervention, two had an episiotomy, one had an instrumental, one had a c section. A couple of us tore, myself included, though I did refuse the episiotomy. One was induced for going over time- she was the one who ended up with the instrumental. Obviously a very small sample size and doesn't mean much, but it can't be all that rare to avoid all intervention.

FourPlasticRings · 22/05/2020 23:39

Should be four, not five, sorry*

DrCoconut · 22/05/2020 23:41

DS2 was born with ventouse. He was badly positioned and got stuck. I had a very bruised back end but no longer term issues luckily. DS1 and 3 were not instrumental deliveries although DS3 was induced due to my waters breaking 2 days earlier. He was my quickest and easiest birth.

DamnYankee · 22/05/2020 23:42

This is very scary!
15 years ago, I read it was unusual for a baby's head to be incompatible with the size of the mother's pelvis.
Guess what? Small pelvis, baby's head off the charts. Csec.
Honestly, I hope they have better imaging and prenatal measurements these days so patients can make an informed decision for Option B on their birth plans!
(As an aside, I do think the pandemic will result in a lot more patients requesting the info so they can make a risk/benefit analysis for themselves!)
All I got during my first post-positive test exam was a cheerful, "Well, you are certainly not built like a Russian peasant woman!"
He was lovely, by the way.
...Although I did grit my teeth a bit when DS was delivered and he said, jollily, "Oh, so that's why he didn't come out!!"

SallyCinnamon3009 · 22/05/2020 23:46

Wasn't aware of the statistic and had a forceps birth. If it want for forceps my son may not be here as they were used due to him being in distress and his heart rate going up.

I am fully recovered and recovered a lot sooner than I would have from an emergency C Section. Just wanted to add this comment for balance. Knowing that statistic wouldn't have made any difference in my situation.

FourPlasticRings · 22/05/2020 23:48

Before I gave birth, I had total faith that I was being given information I needed and wanted.

Ah, see I never had that faith. I always conduct my own research when dealing with anything childbirth related. I knew the risks of instrumental birth beforehand, and of episiotomy (hence refusing the one the midwife tried to push onto me, "I'm just going to make a small cut,"- like fuck you are, lady! Tears generally heal better anyway.)

I was satisfied that I knew enough to make informed decisions as situations arose. I'd always go for maternal request c section over induction, if possible. The NHS doesn't have time generally to give everyone the level of information they would need to make a fully informed decision, even without explaining it (and they have a vested interest in keeping everything as inexpensive as possible). Plus the medical profession in general has a nasty tendency to treat women, especially pregnant women, like imbeciles. Always do your own research.

daisyjgrey · 22/05/2020 23:48

Mine was unassisted. I carry a shedload of birth trauma from it but it was technically unassisted.

I wrote in my birth plan (ha) and was very vocal to the midwives pre-birth that I was NOT to have an episiotomy and if there was any talk of forceps or vacuum etc then it was to be a caesarean.

It was ten years ago, I was twenty two. I don't think the internet resources were as good then or if they were I just didn't really have the wherewithal to know where to look. Retrospectively I feel I was incredibly unsupported and uninformed before and during and after the birth. My care was poor.

It doesn't surprise me that a midwife admitted they actively don't tell mums specific information. If I went to have my appendix out the doctors wouldn't not tell me about how long the anaesthetic would take to wear off or something. People in a position of power who are looked up to as a caregiver lying to pregnant women just feel like another way women are belittled and not trusted to make decisions about their own body. It feels underhand and coercive.

Wolfgirrl · 22/05/2020 23:54

@Time2change2

Honestly I've never read such crap in all my life.

Let the body do it’s job.

I really hate this mindset, that our bodies are 'built' for birthing and that the only thing that stand between us and a perfect whale song birth is an evil doctor, waiting to pounce with his forceps and vacuum.

Our bodies are not meant to do anything. Evolution doesnt have a goal, and isnt edging us towards being a perfect species. In fact our bodies are very badly designed for giving birth since we started walking upright and our brains grew. The baby's heads are too big and our pelvises are too narrow. That is why, even when women did manual work all day and gave birth at home, maternal mortality was so high.

No amount of hypnobirthing will solve a baby that is back to back, a baby that is breech, or a placenta that covers the neck of the womb.

So please think twice before reeling that off again.

Raaaa · 22/05/2020 23:54

I didn't know this either and probably glad about that

I didn't fear childbirth and was open to anything as I trusted that the medics would know better than me therefore didn't make a birth plan. I was put on a the drip and that was it for intervention and had a baby over 9lb so all worked out fine in the end Smile

Wolfgirrl · 22/05/2020 23:56

Plus the medical profession in general has a nasty tendency to treat women, especially pregnant women, like imbeciles

Rubbish.

FourPlasticRings · 22/05/2020 23:57

It's not just in childbirth either.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/3913616-no-one-will-remove-it

Some of the stories in there... Shock

FourPlasticRings · 22/05/2020 23:58

Rubbish

Rubbish it all you want, it doesn't make it less true.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/20/healthcare-gender-bias-women-pain

PorridgeStoat · 22/05/2020 23:59

@FourPlasticRings - do you mind saying what your understanding of the risks of an episiotomy are? I've heard that tears heal better, but also that an episiotomy reduces the risk of a really bad tear (which I guess would be less likely to heal well?) so I'm a bit confused as to whether to actively try to avoid one or not Confused

CoachBombay · 23/05/2020 00:01

I was so lucky to have a seasoned midwife during DS birth, after pushing for just over two hours in stirrups, a Dr said he wanted to intervene with a episiotomy and forceps, I remember her saying"no, wait, baby is fine, she can do this" she looked at me and said breath, there's no time limit on this. You have the energy to do this.

4-5 pushes later and her assisting me a little through crowning DS was born. No intervention, I walked away with no tears either. I was 24.

She had delivered thousands of babies, and was nearing retirment, I honestly think she saved me from uncessery intervention because I was pushing a bit longer than average. I hope all who studied under her, picked up her skills.

RandomMess · 23/05/2020 00:02

"Let the body do its job"

So all the women that die in childbirth where intervention doesn't really exist... they are letting their bodies do its job and guess what - it doesn't always work!!!!

Sometimes there is the wrong intervention or it's done too early but without intervention some of our DC on this thread wouldn't be here...

Should I have waited to 43/44 weeks with my DC and never be induced? Had a stillbirth to prove a point that yes eventually I would have gone into labour (or perhaps died if the baby died and I don't know you try and re absorb it) but at what cost?

Sure my 4th birth was a doddle because I was so much more chilled about being induced again and because I wasn't desperately wanting a "perfect"
Birth - I just wanted a happy baby that didn't scream with silent reflux for 6 months...

Wolfgirrl · 23/05/2020 00:08

@FourPlasticRings

What a crap article!

So women are less likely to get CPR from a stranger because men are worried about violating them.. hardly a malign intention from the medical community.

'women were more likely than men to say they were in poor health, but less likely to die over the following five years' - so we are hypochondriacs compared to the men?

FourPlasticRings · 23/05/2020 00:21

Impressive cherry-picking and deliberate misinterpretation there, @Wolfgirrl. I applaud you.

Benjamin Abella, speculated that rescuers may worry about moving a woman’s clothing, or touching her breasts. One idea mooted was more realistic-looking practice mannequins to account for the female torso.

'women were more likely than men to say they were in poor health, but less likely to die over the following five years' - so we are hypochondriacs compared to the men?

That's one way of interpreting the data. But you don't have to be actively dying to be in poor health. And many things that do kill (heart attack, stroke etc) don't cause you to feel unwell beforehand.

Some points from the article you missed:

In 2001, University of Maryland academics Diane Hoffman and Anita Tarzian published The Girl Who Cried Pain, an analysis of the ways gender bias plays out in clinical pain management. They examined several previous studies, including one that indicated women are more likely to be given sedatives for their pain and men given pain medication, and concluded that women were more likely to be inadequately treated by healthcare providers. Several authors attribute this to “a long history within our culture of regarding women’s reasoning capacity as limited”, the paper noted.

Nowhere is this more evident than when it comes to gynaecological conditions, such as endometriosis. One in 10 women suffer from the disease, but it takes, on average, seven to eight years to be diagnosed. Emma Cox, the chief executive of the charity Endometriosis UK, says that unless women with the disease are trying to conceive, they are often overlooked by doctors. “The attitude is that women are there to have babies,” she says.

In 2016, researchers at University College London found that women with dementia receive worse medical treatment than men with the condition. Namely, they make fewer visits to the GP, receive less health monitoring and take more potentially harmful medication than men.

Time2change2 · 23/05/2020 00:39

Wolf girl
Echoing your lovely statement- I have never read so much crap in all my life either after reading your comment.
Yes it is what our bodies are meant to do. Evolution does indeed have a goal. One goal. Survival. It’s literally how evolution works. Lungs are meant to breath, a heart is meant to beat and a womb is meant to give birth. So yes are bodies are meant to do many things.
True it doesn’t always go smoothly. It doesn’t always go smoothly for every mammal alive. Many factors in our modern lives have affected birth and feeding of babies negatively. However modern medicine has saved many many lives. I am not saying go agains medical advice. No I am not saying wait until 45 weeks to go into labour naturally. Of course if there is a medical need then yes interventions are needed.
What I am saying is that early interventions that are NOT necessary are pushed all the time and are now seen as normal. New mums are often not told enough, many don’t have enough confidence or knowledge or support and only look back in later years at what they would have done differently.
NCT classes help with this (if you have good NCT classes)
You do not need to be internally examined during labour if there is no complications or reason. Getting examined was the worst part of my labour and I wish I had the knowledge and confidence to say no I don’t want that thank you.
Of course things go wrong even in natural labour. That’s why medical professionals are on hand! But too many people opt for interventions at the start and this just starts a chain of interventions often leading to assisted delivery (as shown in these stars) or c section.
Yes Hypnobirthing can help with a back to back baby. No it won’t help with a breech baby or placenta previa. These are the kinds of cases where interventions are needed.
Don’t dismiss hypnobirthing, taking control of your body and getting informed whilst pregnant of intervention free birth esp if your pregnancy is straighforward and low risk. Getting the facts could well save you from a difficult birth and problems later down the line ie inconstancy and prolapse.
And no, I do not need to think twice before ‘reeling’ anything off. You however should think twice before being extremely condescending regarding another persons view!

Time2change2 · 23/05/2020 00:42

Stats not stars

latheritup · 23/05/2020 00:49

I was induced (FTM), my baby was back to back but turned before delivery and I ended up having a successful water birth. No stitches, no assistance etc. It can be done but it is just luck.

KayBM · 23/05/2020 01:42

@FourPlasticRings

I don't think the costs between planned c section and vaginal birth are significant overall. Not from what I have read on Mumsnet. I would have to look this up to be sure though.

Next time we need a car mechanic to fix the car I'll take a course on it just to be sure everything is right as I want. Although by that point maybe I could fix it myself.

Just making the point. Although half the stuff that happens to women i.e prolapse etc, well I'd not heard of so not sure how I'd have known to look at research for it. Confused

But well done on being really well informed ahead of your birth. At least you can probably call your experience empowering, whereas mine felt like a failure. Particularly because I had put me and my baby at risks I wasn't even aware of and trusted in health professionals.

@RoosterPie
I expected to get information from antenatal classes too. It's disappointing that it doesn't happen.

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KayBM · 23/05/2020 01:44

Flowers for all the mums, it's an amazing thing are bodies do 💐

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