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MNHQ here: are you interested in the issue of medical consent during childbirth?

7 replies

RowanMumsnet · 31/10/2019 10:00

Hello

One of the charities we work with, MASIC, is holding an event in London (sorry!) on Thursday 29 November to discuss the issue of medical consent in childbirth, and how that issue ties in to obstetric anal sphincter injuries (third or fourth degree tears that damage your anus, with often life-changing consequences) and the provision of elective caesarian sections.

It's a day-long event (9.15 to 4.30) with panels and debates on topics including:

an explanation of the Montgomery vs Lanarkshire ruling (a landmark case that established a legal standard for women's right to information about risk in childbirth);
a panel on anal injuries in childbirth and what the risk factors are (and what might be the effect of offering more caesarian sections by maternal request);
a panel entitled 'How much do we inform mothers beforehand without scaring?' [imagine there will be some strong MN views on this one...]; and
a panel called 'does consent mean anything when you're exhausted and in pain?'

Throughout the day, people who come along will be able to contribute and ask questions and generally make their views known.

Tickets are £40, or £25 for students or women with obstetric anal sphincter injuries. You can book tickets and see more info here.

We thought this would be of interest to some of you - and of course the issues being discussed are likely to interest lots of you whether you can attend or not - we at MNHQ are thinking about doing something in this area (what does it mean to give meaningful consent to procedures in childbirth, and what's the best way to ensure that women have all the information that they need to give meaningful consent) - so as ever please let us know what you think.

A member of MNHQ will be going along to represent your views, so give us a shout if you buy tickets and would like to have a coffee on the day.

Thanks
MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 31/10/2019 13:33

@Mickhasnotorso

Not to sound insensitive but I have to ask, how do you prove you're eligible for the cheaper ticket...

I don't know - I'll ask!

RowanMumsnet · 01/11/2019 09:11

@itssoooofluffy

MNHQ, your use of the word ‘often’ is misleading, as the majority (up to 80% of women) will have no long lasting symptoms from a third or fourth degree tear.

A very worthwhile topic certainly, but exaggerating helps no one. The RCOG has a helpful guide which quotes some of the statistics.

I do agree with PPs that the issue of consent is incredibly difficult, and it would be interesting to see what alternative ideas people have in regards to both education and consent prior to delivery.

Ah sorry - in my head I was talking about OASI injuries (anal sphincter injuries) for which I think the rates of long-term effects are higher? But I see I didn't make that clear (and I might be wrong about that too!)

RowanMumsnet · 01/11/2019 09:14

@Velveteenfruitbowl

Consent in childbirth is a largely artificial attempt to avoid liability in the event things go wrong.

In an ideal world contingencies for problems that may arise should be discussed before the labour starts and provisional consent obtained to be supported by the usual consent procedures when the time arises.

This is something we'd like to have your thoughts on - what would a proper consent process look like if it were conducted antenatally - and how can it be delivered without simply adding to the existing burden of midwives (who are already required to deliver a lot of antentatal information in a few pretty short pregnancy appointments)

RowanMumsnet · 01/11/2019 09:54

@itssoooofluffy

MMHQ, third and fourth degree tears are anal sphincter injuries. So rates are the same.

@Monkeynuts18 to me ‘often’ means the ‘majority’ or at least more than 50%, hence I felt it was misleading. Sorry if this means something different to you.

Well said by @ABingThing, they should at the very least provide statistically correct information early in pregnancy regarding all methods of delivery in conjunction with the birth plan.

Thank you - had plainly failed to get my head around that previously

BojanaMumsnet · 04/11/2019 12:27

Hello

Flowers to everyone sharing their experience - we've been horrified at MNHQ by some of the stories shared on this thread.

We thought some MNers posting on or reading this thread might be interested to know that we are running an online clinic with solicitors from Leigh Day on rights during pregnancy, labour and childbirth. They can answer questions on consent. Please do have a look here if you are interested.

Thank you
MNHQ

AnnaCMumsnet · 28/11/2019 08:00

Good morning, @RachelBosenterfer and anyone else who is attending the MASIC event today I'll be there on behalf of MNHQ I'm wearing a green dress and have a brown backpack, do come and say hello if you'd like. And thank you again to everyone for sharing your stories here. It's been really shocking to hear your experiences. Flowers
Anna

AnnaCMumsnet · 29/11/2019 09:46

It was a really interesting conference. I was really moved by the four mothers who spoke of their OASI (Obstretic Anal Sphincter Injuries) on stage, as well as those in the audience.

The section on language around birth was incredibly interesting. Being told you're doing great and having professionals ask for your consent led to a more positive birth experience (unsurprisingly). The examples of actual phrases mothers were told were appalling but for anyone on Mumsnet I don't think they were that surprising - things like 'you have awkward nipples', 'you're not allowed to push', 'we're just giving you an internal, 'be quiet you're scaring the other mothers'.

Everyone criticised the idea that because someone had signed a consent form they had consented. The lawyers, surgeons, midwives and mothers all said consent had to be a two way process. This has changed fairly recently (2015) when Nadine Montgomery (who was supposed to be the first speaker but couldn't get from Scotland because of train cancellations) won a revolutionary case. Her son Sam was born with cerebral palsy as a result of being deprived of oxygen for 12 minutes. Her consultant did not inform her that because of her small stature and because she had type 1 diabetes and a large baby she was a risk of complications and that a c section was an option. The ruling made it clear that doctors must ensure their patients are aware of the risks of any treatments they offer and of the availability of any reasonable alternatives, rather than the previous 'doctor knows best' view. (This is a very oversimplified summary so do look it up.) Her son is now at university (with the help of a full time carer).

The speakers were saying that all women should be informed while pregnant (maybe at a 36 week or earlier appointment of their personal risk profile and the pros and cons of various options including forceps, ventuouse, c-section so that if any of these become necessary during birth the woman isn't hearing about them for the first time and her consent can be informed consent.

The overarching sentiment is that birth is an individual experience. Some you won't know until the day - how you handle pain, exhaustion, the position of your baby etc - but professionals know your height, your build, the approximate size of your baby (the size of the dad's head!) and therefore know if you are at increased risk of an instrumental birth and other complications.

We ended with a vote on the motion that informing women of their risk profile will lead to a rise in c sections. Both sides actually had similar arguments in that whatever happens you must let women choose what happens to their bodies. One side said it wouldn't lead to a rise in c sections because most women wanted a natural birth if possible, the other side said it would lead to a rise but was that a bad thing if OASI injuries could be avoided. The issue of cost was brought up as c sections are often said to cost more (around £2k vs £1665 for a non instrumental birth) but the fact is many births do have added complications. Women with OASI injuries explained that they needed counselling, repairs for prolapse, sphincter repair operations, which cost tens of thousands of pounds (not to mention in some cases their jobs, relationships and mental health).

@RachelBosenterfer and other Mumsnet users who were there, is this a fair summary? (It was lovely to meet you BTW).

What do you think - would knowing your risk profile and the pros and cons of c section, forceps, ventouse etc make you more likely to request a c section, and is that such a bad thing?

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