Do women feel as if they're being told 'you shouldn't have a section'???

[tiktok]

Various organisations, including NCT, campaign for choice of place of birth and type of birth, and point to the rising caesarean section rate with concern. This is because the high numbers contrast with the likely figure of women and babies who need a section for medical reasons. It also reflects concern that on the whole, recovery after a section can be longer and more difficult. I don't think this is the equivalent of telling individual women they shouldn't have sections (clearly, the op is life saving for some, anyway), but this is how it seems to be interpreted. Comments?

well it comes down to defining what is "safe"
And it is not always straightforward and I am sure that many if not all of us who delivered vaginally without complications could have been delivered safely by c section in the most.
I have stated over and over that c section is a valid and reasonable birth choice for mothers to be, for whatever reason they choose. Birth is not about right and wrong, in the most it is about what the mother wants and what givn that, is best for baby (not always in that order)
A c section would not be safe for me, I would suffer as a result of it, as would my family and any new baby, but of course if it was medically warranted for the sake of my baby then I would not hesitate, it would likely cost me a breastfeeding relationship with the new baby which would affect ym mental health and psyche too, all for personal reasons which are as you say largely in the whole of the debate "irrelevant"
If I am guilty of basing my view based largely on my experience that I apologise, but surely this is what everyone does?
I know that what worked for me will not work for someone else.

Agree with you about the mother's choice being so important kiwisbird. I really didn't want a section but willingly accepted it for the sake of me not having a stroke (baby was always perky and apparently happy in the high pressure environment - dp always joked that it was surprising that he didn't have the Bends when he was born ). If I'd had rigid objections to having one then that should also have been up to me - i do wonder what the response of the docs would have been.
I know its hopelessly nosey and don't answer me if its personal but I was wondering why you think a section would mean you couldn't have a breastfeeding relationship - my son's 18 months and still a total addict.
Cam, I also heard that infection was the biggest cause of death in mothers - all because doctor's used to examine several mothers without washing their hands in between - yum yum.

because I have a habit of going into shock after anaesthetic and it usually means being sedated for a week or so while all the vitals are restored!
That's why, also a bleeding irregularity on certain drugs. An alergy to sutures, all sorts really!
Have breastfed my two to 15 and 16 mths...

Aw thanks kiwisbird. Its just that there seems to be a widespread belief that sections=bottlefeeding, which I didn't find to be true at all - have more problems trying to get the little blighter to have a few hours off than I ever had getting him on in the first place. Sending you lots of healthy vibes - sounds like an operation would be more horrible for you than for most people.
Btw, are you still up for a return to P'boro for the beer festival in August?

all of you have good points, which once again reminds us that this is a very important INDIVIDUAL choice. i opted for a section and could not have had a better experience: standing up the same day, catheter for 12 hours and drove after 2 weeks. Scar has disappeared completely and could wear bikini when baby was 3 months old.

Sections are no longer 'dangerous' and it doesn't help the debate to say they are. The human race is very resiliant, and nature is pretty ruthless - we have survived the viscissitudes of pregnancy and childbirth extremely well as a race, whereas individual babies and mothers have died in their millions and millions. That's the way it is. There's nothing to suggest from history that vaginal birth is inherently safer than a section.

But women don't make choices simply in terms of relative safety - physical comfort, future childbearing options, psychological baggage and emotional 'stuff', what 'feels' right....it's all part of the mix.

My original question was whether women feel pressured into thinking a section is something they shouldn't have....that it is de facto, a lesser way of becoming a mother. I don't see a lot of evidence of this, in this thread - on the whole, we aren't judging each other in that way.

Which is a good thing!

I think a glance at Fisks endless qualifications, his pioneering research work including lifesaving surgery on babies in the womb and many other things might mean that we ought to take his views pretty seriously IMO. That's not to say that anyone else has to have a caesarian. Of course not. But it is baffling to me that people seem to want caesarians to be dangerous, when modern, elective sections really aren't. And yes, it is safer not to have children at all. Being pregnant is a health risk and so is birth. We choose what risks we want to take in life, and it helps IMO if we are given information as to what those risks are, exactly. It is particularly ironic to me that the caesarians that NICE are most concerned to eliminate are actually the safest of all. Emergency c-sections in labour are less safe.
And I too breastfed my ds for over a year. Breastfeeding and sections are certainly not incompatible.

I certainly have never held the view that you have to go through the trial of labour to be "good" mother, that is hogwash!
A positive birth experience whatever method you choose, is a great start to motherhood which is why mothers should dictate how they give birth (with guided reason obviosuly in some cases)
Empowerment is key...
I'm off to burn my bra....

but i did feel judged by people for my choice, while strangely my consultant understood that I SHOULD HAVE a choice. My ante-natal group was extremely negative about it and some women asked me why I bothered with the classes re. labour etc...I find that the most common reply to my informing people of having had a section was "was the baby breech?".

I know that b/f and sections can be compatible, I only said that in reference to me. Irrelevent as I have been told
I also know that Dr Fisk is well qualified and so forth, but then that begs the analogy, who knows more about driving, Michael Schumacher or a DRiving instructor, as well qualified as he is, he has never or is never likely to give birth.
How many of us have been victims of statistics making our choices worthless when it comes down to it... baby food, nappies, which car, which milk...
I can largely ignore any spiels about c sections as it does not affect me... Ignorance is bliss, but when I read things that denigrate things I have gone through then I am within reason to object and call the man a big fat ass
So I did!

Finally I have read through most of this thread, can you tell I am bored at work!!

There are so many sides to this debate, and all of which are valid. What I find irritating however is the reporting of the facts. The media have sprung upon a small % of women who choose a C-section for 'non-medical' reasons. If all of these were dropped the targets would still not be achieved. Also what constitutes and 'elective' cs over and 'emergency' one. I know there was a thread about this not long ago, and I was deemed to have had 2 'elective' cs because I was not mid-labour rushed down to theatre etc. My 1st CS I couldn't avoid (27 week pre-eclampsia) the 2nd was partly choice, after looking at options. I was in hospital, my waters had broken/leaked but I was not in labour. I was given the choice of 'trial of labour' with induction, or a section. I went with the cs because I had also read that induction after a previous cs was not a good idea, and that the baby's head was not actually engaged. In the end it was the right choice for the baby and me. But it was a choice I bitterly regretted having to make, where was my water birth

I have to agree with Mears and others who say STOP INDUCING WOMEN! It is a proven fact (don't ask me to find back up info) that once you start intervention it is more likely to lead to more intervention. Unless a baby is seriously in trouble why induce at less than 42 weeks? The weekend?? It seems to me that the reason there is such a high level of cs is not women 'choosing' a cs, but dr's making it necessary. It is easy for the government/press to blame us women for the increase, rather than looking at the bigger picture. I am sure that most women would prefer a 'natural' birth and it worrys me more that less than 40% of births are considered natural (no induction etc) That figure does not come from us women excerising our rights, that comes from a total lack of respect from the dr's and a belief that they know better than nature.

The NCT should start a campaign, not for eductaion against cs, but for eduction against induction. That would lead to a massive drop in cs.

Right, I'll go back to work now after that rant

Crunchie - the NCT does campaign against unncessary induction. It's a v. important part of the "keeping birth normal' strategy....loads written about it in various publications.

But why does the NCT campaign so much against maternal choice c-sections? They can't say they aren't something women want, as by definition that is precisely what they are. Yes, of course, campaign for better conditions - more midwives, better access to pain relief, birthing pools, home births for those who want them etc etc. All are vital to maternal choice. But IMO so is the c-section - for women who really want it, which is very few - around 3% of all pregnant women.

Crunchie, that was a brilliant post. I agree with evey word

WEll our branch of the NCT has a very active c section support group with lots of women making no apology (nor should they) for c sections and they are the stalwarts of the branch, obviously this is at a local level.
The NCT firmly believe that natural birth and the least intervention is the best end result for a birth experience, membership numbers tell us many more feel this too.
I hd NHS ante natal classes and c sections were not discussed there either, nor was bottle feeding. One of our ante natal members had her daughter emergency c section at 31 weeks due to a blood clot, we al got to see her, this led to a crash discussion about them, which I think is important. Whether it is planned or not, I feel it is important for women to be informed, so that if they do need a section or anything that deviates from the textbook delivery, they know what to expect.
As an active member and committee member of the NCt, while that assumption could be made from ideology or hearsay, at ground level it is certainly not the case, I would urge anyone refraining from approaching the NCT on that basis to rethink as it is such a wonderful organisation to be involved with at any level you choose.
xx

Sorry Tiktok I didn't know that the NCT campiagn for a reduction in inductions, I was only aware of the latest campaign which 'seemed' to be anti c-section. I didn't join the NCT as I planned to because dd1 was born at 27 weeks, just before my scheduled classes were about to start!! Then I found locally they were very tea and home-baked cakes and fiercly competitive SAHM, I was the only working mum and couldn't join in the coffee mornings.

I wish that journalists could pick up on what real women want - CALLING ALL JOURNOS! Is there a story in it?

My love, I have been trying to sell a 'crisis in maternity services/why aren't we getting the births we want' story since I had my FIRST baby

Kiwisbird, the NCT does actively campaign against maternal choice c-sections. As it happened I joined the NCT after my son was born and found it a fantastic way of meeting other mothers with children the same age - however, I just can't see why it actively campaigns to reduce maternal choice in one area. Yes, most women don't want a c-section, but some very much do. Why does the NCT want that choice away from them? I say again, I am not talking about c-sections for women who don't want them, but for the small number of women who DO.
BTW did some looking into why women in Brazil want c-sections, and studies seem to cite the appalling maternity provision in Brazil and - crucially - the lack of options for pain relief including epidural, which really does back up what I thought. If women felt truly confident that pain relief would be available to them, they might be less keen to have a section. BTW studies show that epidurals do not increase the chance of having a section - though of course statistics are very hard to come by in the area of childbirth as random or double blind trials are pretty much impossible.
Also, I've not written about this subject as I have a journalist friend who does - and I don't want to tread on her - professional - toes.

I have been reading the discussions about c-sec in press and statistics with interest because many of the people I know who ended up having c-sectins felt that they were pushed into it by professionals and that had better provision and decisions been made during their badly-managed births, then they would not have ended up on the op table. As it happens I see no reason why people should not get the delivery they want.

Have to disagree with the opinion that homebirth is supported because I had people looking very aggrieved when I told them that was what I chose to do. Luckily my surgery was unusually pro homebirth but from MIL to women who had gone through ghastly hosiptal births I was condemned or seen as slightly bonkers/ irresponsible. Have to say they were all wrong. It was a good experience. But Idid have support of partner and parents.

Think perhaps what people don't hear is that pain is sometimes maybe easier to manage in a realaxed environment, lowering need for ops when mother is unable to focus on delivery and it all slows down.

But generally am happy to hear positive stories from any type of birth cos precious few of them in my experience.

Where does the NCT actively campaign against maternal choice c-sections? I don't ever remember seeing anything about this and I can't find anything on their website. I'm curious.

I don't have any experience of NCT actively campaigning against c sections, but when I went to NCT classes it was definitely a 'given' that c sections were a bad thing - not much talked about, and never in a positive way.

I had pre-eclampsia and after a 5 day failed induction, which was really scary, exhausting and uncomfortable, I eventually had a c section. I definitely got the impression that it was money that was stopping them operating earlier, that lack of funds was pressurising them into conitnuing the induction when it clearly was not working at all, and it was also clear that I had to have the baby asap as the blood pressure medication was no longer working.

The section when it happened was a great relief, and I felt as moved to see my baby born as any mother, I would imagine. It would have been nice if the NCT classes had prepared me to see the kind of birth experience I had as a positive thing, and not second best (ie the classes should give more equal emphasis to both kinds of birth - after all there is a lot you need to know about c sections and the aftermath, and a lot the NCT could do to de-mystify, and make the whole process less frightening).

Sorry... this is a bit long...

We joined the NCT and went to classes, met other expectant mums/dads and looked forward to our baby's arrival. At the breastfeeding evening (with BF counsellor, not usual NCT leader) I cautiously stated that I was feeling increasingly anxious about the imminent birth. Almost as one the other mums agreed. It turns out we had all been leaving the sessions each week feeling more and more anxious about what lay ahead.

The message I was picking up from the NCT was that if we had any form of intervention (from induction to c-section) we would have a bad or negative birth experience, wouldn?t bond with the baby, breastfeeding would be difficult to establish, we would spend weeks recovering and it would all be horrible. This terrified me.

At 35 weeks our baby was estimated to weigh 7.5 lbs and so we knew we were going to have a bigger than average baby. My sister also has large babies so this was not a surprise to me. We had scans, diabetes tests, meetings with the consultant etc. and waited for the inevitable.

At 10 days overdue I was induced on the Wednesday night. Contractions were strong and 3 minutes apart from the start and we went on to have every form of intervention imaginable (paracetamol (?), DH massages, baths, wobbling around on the birthing ball, TENS, gas and air, pethidine, epidural and finally the dreaded C-Section on Friday morning. (We were offered ? ? have a little rest and then we?ll help you out with a ventouse?? which sent me into a blind panic as a friend has a little girl damaged from a bad ventouse delivery, and so choose the c-section which we had discussed in advance.)

When our baby was born (at 10lbs 1.5oz) I felt overwhelmed with emotion. I looked at her with total and instant recognition and finally felt complete. I loved her from the start. We both took to breastfeeding instantly and successfully (and lasted for 7 months or so).

When DH called the NCT leader to share our wonderful news, her disappointment was palpable. This was such a let down as we felt we had to justify our experience and proof to her that it HAD been positive and rewarding.

Of the 6 of us in our group two had relatively straight forward hospital births, two had c-sections after long labours, one had a very difficult forceps delivery and the last had a ?text-book? homebirth but felt unable to hold her baby for 12 hours afterwards, was never able to breastfeed successfully and has often questioned the lack of post partum support from the NCT (when she needed it most). The girl who had the forceps delivery was torn from ?here to there?, too many stitches to count and had a much longer recovery time than either of the two c-sections.

The best thing about the NCT is the group of friends (still v. close) and the sales! I only wish they (NCT leaders) were all as understanding and supportive of all the birth scenarios we are faced with. They are surely there to support us whatever our decisions, not judge us when we don?t follow the prescribed NCT route.

It probably depends on your teacher. Ours had had a section herself and gave a very good preparation for section (I ended up with a section for non-progression with ds1- same as her - in fact 4 of the class out of 8 had sections- only one had a textbook birth). She also gave me an excellent bit of advice "if a midwife asks you if you want an epidural- bear in mind even if you don't want one right away its likely you'll need one- they're good at knowing how you're getting on".

However found the NCT (postpartum and bfeeding bit) itself very cliquey and quite unpleasant tbh. Not friendly at all. Our teacher was excellent and the group itself great and very friendly but I do think we were lucky with our teacher- and a lot of the other people I met outside the antenatal class were quite judging about sections (and everything else come to that). Even if it doesn't mean to I do think the NCT carries around a certian image which perhaps isn't helpful.

I agree and the BF lady (local NCT chairperson at the time) was horrified to hear our worries and fears all tumble out. I think our leader had little else in her life to occupy herself and it all went to her head. Bit of a reality check would have been nice.

I agree about the NCT experience - made great friends but in terms of birth preparation it was a complete waste of time. Our teacher was very anti painkillers and episiotomies and I, at the time, having never experienced labour, agreed. Wrote a birth plan (hah!) saying would prefer no episiotomy and no epidural. And then felt like a complete failure for "giving in" and having epidural and pethidine (despite having unassisted and "easy" - my doctor's description! - delivery). And tore really badly and ended up being restitched when dd was 8 months old I don't blame the co-ordinator in any way though really - she gave her views and it was my decision whether to agree or disagree. You just never know how you'll feel when its happening.