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Childbirth

What do you want to say to midwives?

207 replies

Whistleforit · 10/10/2013 18:50

Have been asked to speak to a conference of them about What Matters to Women from patient perspective. Come on, what you got for me? :)

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Lavenderhoney · 13/10/2013 11:25

I complained about my treatment and was told by PALS that although they were absolutely behind my complaints as many women felt the same way after having a baby at that hospital.

The reaction of the Mw in the past to similar complaints would be I was hormonal and therefore hysterical and unable to realise they were just doing their job and actually I had been a difficult patient (!) causing them to react and treat me as they did.

PALS said if I could cope with that go ahead. They suggested I would be better to concentrate on getting better and my nb. They said that it could be very distressing to get a response such as this. They said I would get nowhere and nothing would change. It would be very stressful.

They were right.

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Ushy · 13/10/2013 11:51

Lavenderhoney shocking but it illustrates how bad the NHS is at looking at its failings and doing something about them.

If PALS was behind your complaint and yours was one of many, it suggests PALS is a waste of space.

I hope Whistelforit can find a mention of your experience in her talk because I don't think your experience is that uncommon.

Sorry to hear what happened though - very depressing Sad

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VivaLeThrustBadger · 13/10/2013 12:00

Dropyoursword. I hear you about yellow walls.

One of our midwives bought out of her own money one of those beeping things for the keys. So we now have a button/handset hanging up by the cupboard and we can press the button. The other part Is tied to the keys and beeps if the buttons been activated. It's good, but doesn't work if the keys are down the far end of the ward. It's a shame someone had to buy it out their own money. But seeing as we have to buy our own stethoscopes, thermometers, etc i guess it's no suprise.

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notundermyfoof · 13/10/2013 12:16

Lavenderhoney my experience was very similar to yours and I felt like pals were there purely to discourage me from pursuing my complaint. All I really wanted was a proper apology and assurance that it would not happen again but they wouldn't do that and I ended up wishing I hadn't bothered dragging it all up again Sad

I think the key thing for mws to be aware of is how much of an impact their words and actions have on women. If they are having a shit day and being short and dismissive with a woman she will remember that forever! Similarly if the mw takes the time to explain properly what is happening, listens to the woman's concerns and preferences and supports her to make the best choices for herself and her baby she will feel empowered and have fond memories of that time. They are in such a position of power and they need to remember that and use it wisely!

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Dementedhousewife · 13/10/2013 13:20

Thank you, just that. I guess it seems I was lucky and did have a midwife who listened to me, gained consent for everything and made me feel comfortable and safe during the most scary and vulnerable experience. She saved dd1's life, if it wasn't for her listening to me when I said I didn't feel right, please check the baby, they mave have not picked up my abruption in time.
So, thank you.

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RedToothBrush · 13/10/2013 16:02

Reading DropYourSword's comment only serves to stress the thing I feel most.

There are lots of things that could be done to improve services but in the end it all boils down to money.

Its not the lack of money that is the issue. The myth is that there is no money.

There is.

As a midwife you are running from one room to the next praying that you manage to be in the right place at the right time when something goes wrong (when, not if!).

So what is happening is things are going wrong and everyone knows about it and tolerating it.

This is called negligence and if it is happening, then why isn't the whistle being blown by those in the profession?

If they don't they are complicit with this and in turn responsible for it. There might be the fear the law suit that could end your career on every shift, but its not just the one extreme incident that could prove to end your career and healthcare providers need to get this into their heads. A pattern of lower level systematic mistreatment and neglect of patients is as serious as a 'never' incident.

Just getting through the shift might be the only concern, however it still doesn't mean a Trust or an individual has 'got away with it'. Given the investigations and prosecutions going on in some hospitals and nursing home for exactly this reason at the moment.

If you think that patients are at risk on a daily basis, rather than just accepting it as part of the job and part of part of budget cuts no matter how much they try and cover it up, you have a legal responsibility to keep reporting the issue to your superiors and the CQC and if necessary the press until this is changed.

As for sense of being powerless. I despise this attitude. Its an excuse. A bad one at that. We simply are not powerless in this country. I do believe its difficult, yes, but not impossible. You have to expose the reality of it first though. You have to understand how these institutions work and what values they are supporting and use their own rhetoric against them.

So in terms of what to say to midwives, I have to start by asking BIG questions of the unions on this one, I'm afraid. What are they there for?

I see the midwife unions doing far more stuff to protect their ideological beliefs than to really push the idea of women being involved in their own care. I hardly see a whisper about this huge issue of how there are thousands of women who are increasingly privately and anonymously describing on internet forums like this, about how their members broke the law regarding consent and totally disregarded their basic rights about dignity. The lack of action smacks more of protecting their own from exposing the extent of unlawful behaviour that is occurring than proper professional integrity.

It reminds me of a thread some time ago, which linked to a midwifery forum which was visible to all, and some of the comments from midwives on it were utterly disgusting and led to such a fuss that the forum became closed to none members. Rather than address the issue publicly, and built confidence in the profession, it was felt better to simply keep these views undercover away from scrutiny and give midwives a place to vent in private. Whether they do it in public or private, its still being deliberately disrespectful to patients and that is not healthy thing to protect. If its done, it should always be done with justifiable and clear and constructive reasons that everyone can understand, whether they are someone who works in the field or whether they are a potential patient. If its not suitable for public consumption, its not suitable full stop. It can't just be done because someone wants a moan or a laugh at the expense of their patient because they have had a bad day.

Complaints always seem to described as 'isolated' and 'rare' occurrences. This is dismissive and belittling. Any and all complaints need to be treated as representing the views of other service users who don't complain, in the same way they are treated within retail as one complaint being the experience of 100 other people. And I feel this dismissive attitude comes from groups not just Trusts. Are these problems far more common and far more accepted and widespread than it should be? Is this 1 to 100 ratio correct or could it be even worse? And if thats the real story, then why is it that the truth isn't coming out more? I think Lavenderhoney's comments really do show the 'can't do' culture very clearly.

Its about an institutionalised contempt for women as patients in maternity and a lack of political will to properly address the core issues, that comes from groups you would think were on womens' side as well as government.

There's too much budget cuts and cost saving...the managers and the life who make these decisions NEED to work clinically at grass roots level to see the impossibility of the workloads they are expecting midwives to cope with along with the expectations of standards.

And yet there is one budget area that is growing every year without fail and without question and without limitation.

Compensation.

This also neglects to address the fact that many of these issues predate the introduction of budget cuts. The way its commonly phrased, you'd be mistaken in thinking that there was somehow a golden age in the past where women were treated considerably better than they are now.

Lets not be under the mistaken impression that half the attitudes and behaviour described about midwives on this thread has got anything to do with budget. Its definitely NOT just about money.

Money is being used far too much as a reason to justify the unlawful.

They need to understand being grossly understaffed means mistakes WILL be made and that they need to be proactive about looking how to avoid those situations, rather than being reactive once something goes wrong.

Bang on they do.

Given the MAJORITY of all compensation claims and the MAJORITY of all pay outs are maternity related, it is staggering that there is no move whatsoever to link the budget of maternity with the budget for compensation.

This is where the money is.

The problem is the managers and splitting budgets by department. Healthcare does not begin and end when you enter one department and are referred to another, but thats essentially what is happening.

This is THE political issue.

This is the ONLY way you solve the problem.

The problem is NOT the number of CS women are having. The problem is NOT the fact that women no longer have confidence in their bodies - meaning that 'normal' births need promoting (this is what is known as PROPAGANDA and this is generally what is used to cover up underlying issues within a society rather than tackling its core elements). The problem ISN'T a celebrity culture of 'Too Posh Too Push'. The problem ISN'T that women are 'being selfish' by delaying starting their families later and subsequently having more issues as a result. The problem ISN'T that women are more obese than they were and somehow 'get what they deserve' for not looking after themselves prior to getting pregnant. The problem is NOT that women are more liberated sexually than they were and they should have kept their legs crossed and not been so stupid to get pregnant. The problem ISN'T that women are 'more demanding' than they were 30 years ago in the care they expect as a basis right. It IS their basic right. The problem ISN'T that women have an 'unrealistic' expectation of giving birth due to the way that childbirth is portrayed in the media. The problem ISN'T EVEN the broken promises of 5000 more midwives, as the irony isn't really that there is a 'shortage' of midwives. With courses over subscribed and trained midwives still struggling to find jobs, its this budget being stuck in unconnected pots of money, not a lack of people who can do the job and the focus of this campaign is all wrong.

All of the above real miss the point and many of these very real opinions - all of which I have seen come from professionals - do a huge disservice to women.

When I think of all the other issues that are in the press from whatever group I constantly have to keep questioning, why so few of them are drawing attention to where all the money is really going. Its all about agendas... Why IS the point being missed?

Are agendas of the profession as a whole, matching the best interests of the patient? To me the answer is very clearly that they aren't and this has led to a wholesale breakdown in trust between the two.

Bottomline. If we can afford to spend billions on a compensation budget, then its not as if we don't have the money. We clearly are finding it from somewhere and its currently just being pissed up the compensation wall.

The question is can we afford to ignore the link between the two and allow this bill to continue to rise rather than stating ignorantly that we can't afford X, Y and Z in maternity which seems to dominate the debate?

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VivaLeThrustBadger · 13/10/2013 16:08

Well I know where I work we frequently fill out incident forms stating that there has been a dangerously low level of staffing on the ward. More than once a week. Sometimes more than once a day. We've been doing this for years.

Two people left due to it and wrote to Jeremy Hunt who actually sent in an inspection team. The team said it wasn't any worse that anywhere else and we'd have to cope.

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DropYourSword · 13/10/2013 16:22

I'm not going to address all the points I think you're a little misinformed on redtoothbrush but I will say this. There is most definitely a midwife shortage in the sense that there aren't enough midwives employed to provide a safe level of care. However, I should have stated more clearly that this is a shortage of positions available (lack of funding), rather than trained professionals. When I graduated from university with my midwifery degree I couldn't get a job for nearly a year as there were a shortage of jobs available. But it absolutely didn't mean there were enough midwives in the profession, it was because staff numbers were being reduced, and retiring midwives weren't replaced.

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Ushy · 13/10/2013 16:29

WOW!!! One of the most amazing posts I have read on this subject Redtoothbrush and interesting that Viva- who is a midwife - agrees.

I hope Whistleforit is still around to read it - the points you are making are SO important and if we can get 'the powers' to understand that it is not about providing more money but just ensuring less waste then there is real hope.

Well done on such a brilliant post Wine

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Ushy · 13/10/2013 16:36

Dropyoursword - I don't think Redtoothbrush is disagreeing with you - she's saying money that could be spent on better care is being "pissed up the compensation wall"

Exactly, precisely and brilliantly put!!!

And I might add that I work in clinical negligence so I have got no motive whatsoever for agreeing with Red - it could put me out of a job.

I agree for one reason and one only - she's right!

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Thumbwitch · 13/10/2013 16:37

I was under the impression that compensation claims were paid for by the hospital insurers - is that not the case then? Obviously it would increase the cost of insurance if there were more claims, but I'm pretty sure the hospital itself doesn't cover the compensation.

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Ushy · 13/10/2013 16:40

The NHS self insures and under a scheme called CNST it allows individual Trusts to insure but the bill for claims is paid - in full - by the NHS. Red is completely right in her analysis.

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Thumbwitch · 13/10/2013 16:45

Fair enough, that makes sense then, thanks for clarifying.

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Lavenderhoney · 13/10/2013 16:50

I agree with a Redtoothbrush, its not always about the money.

When I was in hospital there were plenty of Mw about, not one complained about lack of staff as an excuse for their rudeness and lack of empathy. I couldn't understand why Mw seemed to be such a moody and miserable bunch of women determined to spoil childbirth and the couple of days after for as many women as possible. Kind Mw, doing their job professionally with empathy should be the norm. It was a case of good Mw/ bad Mw when I was in hospital and it added to the stress of just having had a baby.

Often, when I was working there was a lack of adequate funding to do my job properly, but I would not have reacted by being unpleasant and causing distress. It annoys me greatly for the insinuation that lack of money is the reason for ill treatment.

I don't know any other profession where they can get away with it. And my dm said they were like that when she had dc, decades ago.

Yes, there are some nice Mw, who are a credit to their profession, but sadly it seems to attract another type of person. Throwing cash at it won't make it better.

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VivaLeThrustBadger · 13/10/2013 17:10

Cnst is changing bit time from march next year.

At the moment how much a hospital pays to join the insurance scheme depends on how good their training and policies and paperwork are. If they can demonstrate good levels they pay less.

It looks like from April how much a hospital pays will depend on the previous years pay outs for that hospital.

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VivaLeThrustBadger · 13/10/2013 17:13

Sadly there is research that shows the more stress a hcp is under, the more overworked they are then the less empathetic they are to service users. Shouldn't happen but it does. Not with all hcp but with too many.

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rugbychick · 13/10/2013 19:09

I would have liked more help once on the ward. More help with breast feeding. I ended up bottle feeding as I didn't feel I'd had enough help/support with breast feeding to continue. (I'm not anti ff by the way) this May sound silly, but it hadn't crossed my mind about changing a nappy until the following morning!!

Also, don't assume that because I'm a nurse, I know what to do with a baby!!!!!!

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marriedinwhiteisback · 13/10/2013 19:23

The thing is though Beaver my DC were born in 1994 and 1998. DS was born on Christmas Day and there were more staff than women on the maternity wards. They weren't busy; they were just rude, jobsworthy and grossly incompetent. In fact I have never seen an overworked midwife or nurse - but I have heard the screeching and the laughing and the snorting at 2am and 3am around a pc - looking up holidays and discussing sex with boyfriends - you know when patients are trying to sleep and should be able to if the professional staff had one tiny iota of respect for them. And when the next morning they were asked to do something and said they had been run off their feet all night I really didn't expect them to get arsy when I said I hadn't heard them being busy but they had woken me up whilst shrieking about personal matters on work time. They then had the audacity to tell a doctor from A&E that they were run off their feet and would not accept a child who could stay in A&E for another couple of hours without breaching guidelines. That was when DD was in hospital with a broken leg.

It's an absolute bloody disgrace - and yes I did complain.

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VivaLeThrustBadger · 13/10/2013 19:47

Married, there's no excuse for that at all. I'm sure there are some people both in nursing and midwifery who just don't have the compassion they should have. People like this shouldn't be working.

I have told colleagues to keep the noise down at the desk on a night shift before. I was cringing at how loud they were been. That's the only time I've had to though, at other times staff have been more thoughtful.

It's funny where I work there are more complaints about the postnatal ward than the labour ward. Off the top of my head I'd guess on a ratio of 1:20. Complaints are mainly about staff attitude, staff been too busy to give women attention, etc. but the staff rotate between the two wards, so where they are will average out over a year. Staffing is better on labour ward. So I do think working conditions must have something to do with it a lot/some of the time. I don't believe the staff make an effort to be nice on labour ward but lose all their empathy the next week when they're on the pn ward.

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Whistleforit · 14/10/2013 11:26

Thank you so much for all of your comments on here: very much appreciated. I have read all and now made my speech. I know not everyone will agree with what I said - it was my view based on my experiences, input from this and others. I cited this discussion and I suspect quite a few people in the room will visit to read it themselves without needing me as an intermediary.

What I said was that, IMO, the system as it currently designed in lot of the UK doesn't work for women or MV. It is based on a quasi-industrial model where at each point in the process you are seen by someone different (like a car factory - where your doors are spray-painted in one place, your engine tinkered with elsewhere and you are sold to a customer somewhere else). Which may work for cars & other stuff that is the same but doesn't work for real people with their own unique experience/issues.

This means that the human connection between mothers/parents and midwives - based on mutual trust, kindness & humanity - is too often lost. They are left with trouble shooting problems - with no real insight into who they are dealing with and always catching up on the background (sometimes effectively but often less so). And we are always meeting strangers in stressful and difficult circumstances and getting a lower standard of care that might be got from a small team that knows you as an individual well.

The result is that they have poor job satisfaction and many women feel they have been cared for very poorly. Which - I like others believe - leads to more intervention, more emergency C-sections and more compensation claims. I.e. attempted cost-saving up front is generating bills down the line. There seem to be pockets of excellence in the UK where better care is being provided which perhaps leads to hope for the future.

Whether I am right or not, I can tell you that the whole room listened. I didn't see anyone who wasn't interested in the views of mothers or in making things better.

I'll probably get shouted at now :) so will go and hide with a cuppa. Like I say, I didn't claim it was everyone's view.



Thanks again for sharing all your experiences & perspectives.

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notundermyfoof · 14/10/2013 11:33

Well done whistleforit! I hope they do come on here and see what so many of us are saying. I can't link on my phone but this thread reminds me of the assault/internals thread which I think the policy makers should read - so many horrific stories on there which can't be blamed on lack of money!

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Whistleforit · 14/10/2013 11:44
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Thumbwitch · 14/10/2013 12:08

I think that sounds like a good overview of the scenario, Whistle and I hope that some of them DO come here to see what else was discussed and suggested.

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notundermyfoof · 14/10/2013 12:15

I'm not sure, the link isn't working for me! Iirc there were a few all started around the same time, I posted on there under a different name about the horrible things a mw did to me which was bad enough but some of the things on there were truly awful Sad

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RedToothBrush · 14/10/2013 18:35

VivaLeThrustBadger Sun 13-Oct-13 17:10:05
Cnst is changing bit time from march next year.

At the moment how much a hospital pays to join the insurance scheme depends on how good their training and policies and paperwork are. If they can demonstrate good levels they pay less.

It looks like from April how much a hospital pays will depend on the previous years pay outs for that hospital.

That HAS to be one of the worst thought out policies I've heard over the years.

All that will mean is that the worst performing hospitals with the worst records of care and highest rates of compensation pays will end up paying MORE whilst the better run hospitals will fair better, thus making the disparity in care between hospitals even worse and not better!!! If you are struggling with budgets already, then how is it going to improve the situation. I thought the postcode lottery and regional differences were something we were trying to tackle not make even worse!

Who the buggery bollocks thought that was a good idea?!

The way they are doing it also means there is a link between the hospitals and not various departments. So even those hospitals that are doing better, don't have to direct money towards maternity if they don't want. It will be considered, if you are doing ok, comparatively with other hospitals (and baring in mind with this set up, the worst ones are going to get even worse) then you don't have to improve; just be comparatively better than the competition. Will care get better with this model? No, because they'll do the bare minimum to improve services and just feel they have to maintain a certain level of care to ensure they just don't get a bill too big. And as its considerably less glamourous to invest in maternity than other departments I would put money on maternity services even in better hospitals not seeing the benefit of it.

If maternity is what is accounting for most compensation claims and pay outs, then the money has to be directly invested there, and in places that are being managed the worst in the first bloody place. You have to start tackling the core issues and set objectives that actually mean something rather than punishing those that are crappest to begin with!

And thats not for example setting a bollocks target like "we need the CS rate to be X" which seems to be the default thing to blame and actually in reality doesn't mean a huge amount and doesn't reflect the wide range of needs and differences in women that do exist. It just puts more pressure to factory process women in a set way. Not necessarily in their best wishes and in the way they want.

The only way it can properly be achieved is to find someway to properly gauge and assess satisfaction amongst women, in terms of how they felt supported in their choices, supported through labour, involved in their care, treated with respect and dignity and things clearly explained if they do go wrong etc etc etc.

In essence actually bothering to give a flying fuck and listening to what women are actually complaining about and what is currently going wrong!

The complaints procedure needs to be beefed up in the sense that patterns are taken a lot more seriously, even if the complaint is never officially pursued. EG PALS or whoever don't necessary have to have someone pursue an individual complaint - they have the power to act if they can a number of similar enquiries about the same issue - even if these go no where. Theres room to say that anonymous complaints should be considered, if they are generalised and not directed at individual named members of staff.

Not to mention, compensation claims are the worst aspects of where it is going wrong. It still does not mean women who don't have a 'genuine' reason to claim have been treated in the way they HAVE A RIGHT to be. The budget plan needs to look at getting care to a standard which does this as well as just reducing liability to hospitals to an 'affordable' level.

Trouble is also many women won't express these feelings in hospital, for a variety of reasons, so surveys at point of service are only half the picture and this needs to be recognised and explored. There are so many women on Mumsnet who only reflect on their experiences retrospectively, precisely because they were vulnerable at the time, and realise that they accepted the way they were treated at the time but subsequently came to realise what happened to them was completely unacceptable and not at all normal.

Truth, be told, its really not rocket science. Not really. Complex, but not THAT complex. Its not that hard to understand the comments and criticisms that are on this thread is it? However given the level of idiocy of policymakers like those who made this one up, you do wonder whether some of them would be capable of making a lego rocket, with a full set of instructions somedays.

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