Strangest fear- Help?

[WantsToBeAMan]

I've posted before about my preference for a cesarian. I don't plan on having children for the next 10 years or so ( I am 23 ).
I have the strongest fear that by that time cesarians at maternal request will be banned:( I already know I'm crazy so there is no need to tell me.
I was in therapy, but I cannot afford it any longer so I keep having these awful panic attacks.I read that thread here about postnatal injuries and I had my worst panic attack in 6 months.

I am so scared:( I don't ever want to have to give birth vaginally.

Does anyone here think that elective cesarians will be banned in ten years?

Hey sileas451 welcome to our little crazy club!

Every sympathy about what happened to you regarding your termination. I can't imagine how you feel with that - your use and paranoia about contraception is apparently pretty common amongst sufferers. I completely understand it.

I started having these feelings when I was in my mid teens at least. I always used to say I wanted to adopt, but as I've got older I've felt more and more uncomfortable with that as an option. Its always been there but has got increasingly worse as having children becomes an increasing reality in my life and friends/family's lives. From what I read about primary tocophobia, its common for the fear to originate in childhood so what you say about always being afraid on a subconscious level makes perfect of sense to me. It certainly didn't feel like it happened overnight from watching too many television programmes or hearing too many horror stories etc!

Let us know how things go with your doctor. If it goes good or bad... There seems to be a pretty good bunch of people here who for the most part are sympathetic and supportive about it, rather than judgmental.

Its good to hear from people in a similar position.

I'm so sorry to hear of your fears and hope that as time goes by that you these ease for you. I held off becoming a Mum for many, many years through fear of childbirth and also a severe needle phobia. I had a lot of cognative therapy to try and deal with my anxieties.

Even though I still had many fears we decided to take the plunge and try for a baby as I was 33 years old and didn't want to risk leaving it any longer to start our family. My husband and I were blessed with a daughter who arrived by VB three weeks ago and I can honestly say that I am so glad that I decided to go for it regardless of my massive fears. To be completely honest I ended up having a birth that was 24 hours long and threw every single challenge at me that I ever could have imagined - though at the time you are just so stuck in the moment and there is so much pain relief and support available that you deal with it as there aren't any other options at the time.

I promise that in time when you decide to be a Mum you will discover the same strength that you never knew you even had. Your body will always look after you.

What you are going through is so distressing and I really understand how frightening it is - though you have many years to help yourself and plan for when you are ready to start a family. Good luck to you and be brave :)

sileas451, I hope you're doctor was sympathetic towards your fears over childbirth. Naturally people in general will be nervous but you sound like you have a disabling chronic fear which is far greater than the average person feels. As it is having an effect on your emotional health then hopefully the medics should consider your request. Even if you had a cs as a back up plan if the vb didn't go well. I am also putting off having any more children (I have one) due to fear however I keep telling myself its only one day in your life and you have your child for the rest of your life. So it is worth it. Pregnancy is a lovely bonding special experience and not everyone gets morning sickness. CBT like something you should explore to relieve your fears.

Cupcakemamma, Stars 80, Quietlyafraid,

Thank you for your kind replies. The problem is though that I don't think I will ever, ever get to the stage of being able to try to conceive. I literally spend most of my time trying to avoid it because I get panic attacks just thinking about it. I find the idea of pregnancy just so invasive. I hated it when I was pregnant before. It felt like an invasion.

My doctor's appointment is on Tuesday and I think I will be crushed if he does not take me seriously. I will let you all know what he says.

From what I remember from my first pregnancy if you have a true phobia of childbirth then if you can have counselling etc but still feel the same your obstetrician can do an elective cs. I was so scared I asked for a cs as I have epilepsy and had this fear of having a seizure when I was in the late stages of birth and what the hell would happen to us. bUt I had a natural birth, of course it hurt but I'm not traumatised by it and gas and air really was my best friend! I was so amazed at how good I felt within about an hour of giving birth I couldn't believe I'd survived. Now, I'm actually scared, being preg again with dd2 due in march that I might have to have a cs! I loose control of my legs during a seizure and am scared the epidural might feel like that, sort of paralysed. There are some horrible birth stories out there, but I can honestly say if I have a birth like I did with dd1 I'm looking forward to it. Just worried the first go was too good to be true! The isa idea is a great one though, and if you don't need it to pay for a cs what a fab holiday you'll all have to celebrate! Good luck with whatever you decide.

sileas I'm at exactly the same stage as you with not knowing if I can ever get to that stage either. I don't know how to deal with it or how to go on with my life. Part of me just wants to not have children and grieve, but I'm struggling to come to terms with that. Its not the same as making a choice not to have kids or not being able to have kids. Just want you know to know, that it isn't just you...

It's nice to find support, Quietlyafraid. Have you seen a doctor yet? I'm just back from my appointment and I feel so utterly drained. I was shaking before I went in and I almost bottled it again. I ended up just blurting out to the doctor that I'd missed all the previous appointments because I'd been too scared to come. Then I had to tell him.

He was amazing. He really was. He was completely the opposite of what I had expected and he just did everything right. He was just so kind that I ended up bursting into tears, desperately trying not to cry in front of but failing.

He sat with me for ages, even though there must have been loads of other patients waiting outside and just talked to me about it. It felt so good to actually talk to somebody real.

He's referred me - well, it's a self-referral system - onto a psychiatric centre for treatment. However, he also said those magic words: that if it came to it I could have a caesarean if I fell pregnant again. He said on mental health grounds it's entirely possible, if he referred me. That made me want to kiss him. It means I won't be continually freaking out about being pregnant, despite using four methods of contraception (like I did recently, after I took the morning after pill, again.

I honestly feel a lot better. I don't think the therapy will work, but just knowing there's at least another option out there if it doesn't, and knowing that at least my phobia will be taken seriously, is such a huge weight off my mind.

Hootie, I hope your pregnancy and birth goes well, whether you decide to have a natural birth or not.

Hey sileas451

Thats BRILLIANT news. So pleased for you. If nothing else, if the weight lifted off your shoulders enables you to be more relaxed during sex, thats a massive thing. If the therapy has benefits then brilliant.

No I haven't seen a doctor. Fear of doctors is a large part of my fear unfortunately. I've spent the last month dealing with the dentist, which hasn't gone too well and has put a huge strain on my relationship with DH. Its made me doubt further a lot of my issues and ability to cope with being pregnant/childbirth. Its not something, that is on the cards for a while at least, especially since after trying to discuss this with DH he's pretty much slammed the door on the idea. His career is really taking off at the moment, he's under loads of pressure and he just says no to the whole idea for at least two years. Which perhaps wouldn't be such a big problem if I wasn't four years older than him...

Perhaps it would be better if I could actually discuss this with someone. But when I have a panic attack, I can't speak, I get completely disorientated and just can't think. It makes even talking to doctor just impossible without support.

I'm trying to take the eating the elephant approach. You can't all of in one go you have to do it bit by bit. I'm trying to find solutions to each issue I have. Knowing I have good grounds for an ELCS is just one part of the solution though and raises other issues in itself. I'm not convinced I will be able to tackle it all.

I'm also trying to mentally deal with possibility of no kids. If they come along, yeah great, but I don't want to torture myself over this only for it never to happen. I have to be realistic and honest with myself about it. I'm finding it hard though, and increasingly difficult to relate to friends, particular women (which I've always struggled with anyway). I just feel like I don't 'think' like other women.

On the positive side though, I am finding great comfort in actually talking about this and hearing from other people having similar problems. Just getting the issue out there makes such a big difference to me. Hearing you make just one positive step forward is amazing and just so wonderful to me. Even if I am never able to get past this in my life, it nice to see others make progress and maybe find the solution. That probably makes me sound mad, but I admit to being exactly that anyway!

Brilliant posts, quietlyafraid

I think taken the politcal approach is exactly right. The natural childbirth lobby groups have the ear of MPs so that could be changed.

I do think though, that there are women who make an informed choice about caesarean because they prefer the risks of c/s to vaginal. Vaginal carries the really awful prospect of ending up incontinent and there are added risks for the baby like a higher incidence of asphyxia and brain damage in the birth canal and shoulder dystocia resulting in nerve damage. Not to mention that vaginal birth can be agonisingly painful and psychologically traumatising. (And I speak as someone who has tried birth all ways!).

Some people try to make a list of risks and benefits and think that everyone will make the same choice. They won't.

I have just been reading those NICE guidelines and what is interesting is that it is fairly clear that although the short term costs of caesareans are higher, the long term costs are almost certainly LOWER. They only added in the effect of urinary incontinence and NICE concluded that caesarean was more cost effective. They didn't add in psychological or bowel incontinence treatment.

Re the OP question, I actually feel a bit more positive. I think things are moving towards a system that treats women with equality. In the future people will look back to these 'dark days' where terrified women were forced to give birth vaginally and the informed choice of women was ignored.

It will only happen, though, if everyone gets behind people like quietlyafraid in her lobbying and gets the political agenda changed.

Ushy,

The NICE guidelines seem to suggest that, but they also ask for research on other things - such as the long term health effects of ELCS on mothers and children. They don't count the costs of subsequent pregnancies. There are a lot of things missing from the report. I don't think the debate on cost should be taken too far either. If you look at what NICE say on the base cost (without taking into consideration downstream costs) when X% of women have ELCS it becomes cheaper than planned VBs. I would HATE to see that situation arise - it potentially could lead to women not having access to VBs in this country. And as other people have quite rightly said elsewhere the cost of a planned VB could be being inflated by the costs of complicated VBs and EMCS - as a result of poor care during birth and potentially over-medicalisation of the process. The real answer is we really don't know and I'm cautious of saying it is cheaper. My feeling was a lot of the health economics section was about saying that it is impossible to put a price on it rather than say either is cheaper.

We should be talking about what is best for each individual not what is cheaper. What I feel is important, is that women get the right advice to do that, that research is improved, women are supported in their decisions by the medical profession and ultimately get the right choice for them. And they get the care and support they need if things don't go to plan. An ELCS shouldn't be seen as an 'easy' option; being granted one isn't a guarentee that you will have a satisfying and forfilling birth, and I've seen some suggest this - its right for some people, but could be bad for others if its isn't fully thought out. If I see someone use the words 'easy option' which I have seen someone do in the last week, it rings great big alarm bells in my head. There are pro and cons to each method - neither is 'easy'. Neither is 'better'. More 'suited' might be a better way to put it.

It HAS to be a balanced argument that supports a range of needs for a range of women. We are not all the same. We aren't going to get to that situation if we don't support maternity care and midwives across the board.

The whole subject is highly emotive and littered with myths, half truths, lack of evidence, poor quality information and indeed straight out lies. There are people here I categorically disagree with on the subject, however they have great arguments, informative and intelligent points to make which should be part of the debate and not ignored. Its the ignorance I can't bare.

quietlyafraid I TOTALLY agree that cost should not be the main factor but when it comes to the NHS it often is

I agree with you about the danger that the real costs could dawn on them one day and there could be a swing towards caesareans even where women don't want them.

That's why it is so important to get home the key message about women being able to make informed choices.

I know NICE ask for long term research on the effects of ELCS on mothers and children but that might take ten or fifteen years. We know these from past studies already. Aside from adhesions which rarely result in surgery, nearly all the risks of caesarean are short term. There are a few serious ones like accidental bladder and bowel injury and placenta accreta. Percreta adds less than 1 in 1500 cases through 2 or less caesareans. In cost terms these don't make a lot of difference.

What does are the ongoing or common ones - the chronic conditions - bowel and urinary incontinence, psychological problems. These attach almost entirely to planned vaginal. When you look at the baby, it favours caesarean even more. The long term chronic conditions - erbs palsy, brain damage arising from birth complications are overwhelmingly related to vaginal birth.

You're right - we don't want compulsory caesareans BUT in trying to deny or reduce them, it does mean that the policy makers are being influenced not by evidence but by cultural bias and the Daily Mail! Moreover, there is a whole generation of health care professionals who have been trained to believe 'the message' and are not looking at the up to date evidence.

Choice is the word! Good luck quietlyafraid with your campaign - it will help the OP if you are successful.

Sileas451- that is brilliant news. At least he took you seriously and you won't feel so scared when you decide to have a baby. I really don't know how people go through childbirth but you basically find the inner strength somehow. I do believe that sometimes the reality is worse that the actual event though. I was very unlucky with (my first and last) birth and had a lot of complications,as the baby turned back to back and I have always said never again after a 40 hour kielland forceps labour however I'm proud that I did it and afterwards wasn't so bad, as I got a lot of support from family. However most people that I know had easy births that turned out brilliant and gone to no2 and no3, so you can never ever compare yourself. The odds are in your favour. I am determined not to let that stop me from having more children but would like some emotional support to prepare me if there is a next time. I think once you do have a child you will definitely realise that it is the best thing ever and well worth it.

quietly afraid, sorry to hear of your issues also. This is such a good site and I so wish it was available,or if it was, I wish I knew of it when I was going through my problems. I know how horrible panic attacks are as had Post natal depression and a chronic anxiety which people couldn't relate to. I felt like everyone thought I was wierd and didn't understand me. My fear started to spread to many areas of my life and I found I couldn't enjoy motherhood and felt helpless and pathetic that I couldn't cope. The only thing the doctor did was prescribe anti-depressants which had numerous side effects. Counselling and talking therapies seem to have waiting lists and a taboo attached to them. I was too scared of what people thought when really what I think should be paramount. There are some really good self help books out there. One I am reading is 'Feel the fear and do it anyway', this is an excellent read and helped me a lot, I couldn't recommend it enough.

Quietlyafraid,

I only have a second before I run out the door, but I just wanted to say that it is amazing hearing what you have to say because I am exactly the same. Your comment about not 'thinking' like other women hit the nail on the head. I am the same. I actually had two very militant women gang up on me last night in a very patronising, aggressive manner about how I will change my mind about not wanting to have a child because of childbirth. They don't understand. They have never felt like me or thought like me.

It's good to know I'm not alone. If there's two of us on this thread, how many people suffer from this and just never speak up about it?