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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

41+3 with first baby, planned home birth and terrified of induction- advice please!

42 replies

Ali79 · 17/06/2011 19:46

Please help! I have had an uncomplicated low risk pregnancy, and am now at 41+3. We are planning a home birth. At my post dates appointment today the monitoring confirmed my baby is doing well. The hospital will ultimately support us in whatever we choose to but made clear today that the legal liability lies with us from 42+1 should baby die. It was not a pleasant conversation. Our suggestion that we have strong evidence to suggest I am actually 40+6 today was dismissed, and we had all of this discussion with the most senior registrar on the maternity ward.

I also had a first sweep today- turns out I am 1 cm dilated- and I'm planning another at 41+5 (sunday) and 42+0 (tuesday) We've agreed to daily fetal monitoring from 42+1, plus a U/S scan on that day, should I not go into labour before then.

But we are now spooked and extremely confused:

  • Should we agree to intervention at 42+1? Later? Not at all?
  • If so, induction or C-section? Does anyone have any good stories about induction or would I be better off just asking for a C-section straight off? I've heard so many awful things about induction. Not least, the idea of having to labour from the off in hospital feels like absolutely the worst thing to do, worse than electing for major abdominal surgery. Is that crazy? What do others think?
  • And how on earth can I now calm myself down enough to maximise my chances of going into labour? I've spent most of today crying.

Any advice extremely welcome.

OP posts:
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pinkyp · 23/06/2011 09:42

C section is a major operation, and a longer recovery time and alot of pain after, some (not all) can't get up to pick there baby up a while after birth so for me induction wins hands down! I've had an induction with my first and It was lovely

ragged · 23/06/2011 10:19

.

Bumpsadaisie · 23/06/2011 16:02

Ali

What happened in the end? Hope all is well.

findabetterolemodel · 23/06/2011 22:00

Just cannot believe the blase irresponsible attitudes on this thread.

"Im a great believer that baby will be born when he / she is ready, and yes while the risk of baby mortality is higher, (double they like to say) its about half of 1% rather than a third of 1%, so still very small over all."

I find it staggering that anyone would take this kind of risk with their baby's life.

The doctors tell you all the 'doom and gloom' stuff because it's true!!!If you go beyond 42 weeks you are taking a risk with your baby's life, and if your baby dies as a result of the placenta having deteriorated (as it begins to do at 42 weeks) YOU need to take responsibility, yes!

It really does scare me that people read a few articles online about stillbirth risks and going beyond 42 weeks, pick out the bits that suit them and decide they know better than the nasty doctors who are just trying to scare them and ruin their pregnancy. Honestly. You know the safest thing is to not go beyond 42 weeks. Just because there are people who have done it and it's been ok, does not mean it's safe.

Do the right thing by your baby and have your induction at 42 weeks - babies do not always come when they are ready - that's sadly not true.

Not going to read any more of this thread, it's made me so cross.

spudulika · 23/06/2011 22:19

findabetarolemodel - if you do come back to this thread, please read the article on induction below. Might broaden your perspective. There's evidence that first time mums having induction have VERY high rates of emergency c/s, which is the riskiest form of birth for them and their babies. I think they have a right to question treatment which probably (usually) isn't necessary, and may put them at risk of major surgery.

Induction of Labour (By midwife Virginia Howes)

This article was published in THE PRACTICING MIDWIFE (2004 Jul-Aug;7(7):45-6)

Thousands of women in this country with normal pregnancies and healthy babies are being put at risk every day in maternity units across the country. Yet like lambs to the slaughter they pack up their bags and head for the hospital in the belief that the doctors, who instigate the barbaric treatment they are about to undergo, are saving their babies lives.

Many of them then spend the next few days in excruciating pain over and above that what is experienced in normal labour in an effort to drag their unready and unwilling bodies into labour. Their bodies are filled with drugs that may compromise their long-term health so they begin the spiralling cascade of interventions that all too often culminates with entry through the theatre doors.

The women and their families thank the doctors and hospital guidelines for saving them from the problems they had, problems that are often itrogenic in origin. And so the myth, that their bodies are failing them in the one thing women are best at, procuring a future generation, is perpetuated.

To add insult to injury my colleagues, midwives, who by definition of their title should be the protectors of women and babies, help daily to continue this unnecessary practice. Induction of labour for no medical reason has become a socially acceptable procedure.

The N.I.C.E. (National Institute for Clinical Excellence 2001) Guidelines are the gold seal that have been adopted with open arms and are now governing practice in maternity units throughout the country. The Induction of Labour (IOL) is one such guideline and one that recently instigated a rather heated conversation between a hospital antenatal clinic midwife and myself. Her role as head of the clinic involved speaking to many women who were booked for induction and therefore she was in a very responsible position to give true and unbiased information about IOL to large numbers of woman.

I had telephoned the clinic to arrange an ultrasound scan for a client who was 42 weeks pregnant with her second baby. The pregnancy was normal. The client was very well informed and despite knowing there was no evidence to support fetal surveillance had decided on a scan to check the well being of her baby. Social pressure had made her feel that she needed to "do something" and this course of action, she felt, at least appeased her family, friends and neighbours. What she did emphasise to me was that she did not want to be put under any pressure by anyone to be induced and this I clearly explained to the midwife I conversed with. I asked her to pass that information on to the midwife in charge; an appointment was made for 2 days hence. The following morning I received a letter from the midwife in charge. The letter informed me that a review of the hospital notes made the clients dates "wrong" and stated "in accordance with N.I.C.E Guidelines on post maturity, no woman should go over 42 weeks".

After reading the letter my client, feeling that was this was just the pressure she did not want to subject herself to, lost all faith in the maternity unit. She understandably felt that she would not be given the respect to make her own decisions especially as, without meeting her, judgment had been passed on her by the professions from which she had requested help. Also she must be a stupid woman after all if she knew when she got pregnant! She cancelled the appointment.

The guidelines of course do not say what the midwife had stated. The letter left me in no doubt that this head of antenatal clinic not only had not read the guidelines but also more worryingly had put her own interpretation on them. If this is but one example of how they are being used to manipulate and lie to women what hope do women and society have of knowing the truth and making an informed choice?

Following the publication, in Canada, (Hannah 1992) of the largest Randomised Controlled Trial (RCT) to date concerning induction of labour and further meta-analysis of other RCT The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) adopted of the policy of offering induction at 41 weeks. This is now the recommendation of what is regarded as gold standard, The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (N.I.C.E) Guidelines.

However what is not widely known by obstetricians and midwives alike is that all the studies used to govern today?s practice was and is based on 8 babies! In the case of induction of labour, the number of babies that died following their mothers being induced versus the numbers of babies that died following their mothers left to proceed with pregnancy beyond 41 weeks. There were approximately 3000 women in the IOL group and 3000 in the expectant management group.

One baby died in the IOL group and 7 died in the expectant management group.

Hey presto it is obvious then many babies? lives will be saved if we offer to induce every woman over 41 weeks.

Does anyone care about looking at the wider picture?

I was taught as a student nurses on diploma courses at the very beginning of my education not to use research that is more than 10 years out of date to underpin my practice. Yet to govern and recommend practice affecting thousands of women and babies, many of the RCT in the Meta analysis used to compile the N.I.C.E Guidelines are more than 20 years out of date, some of the studies even 40 years old. Whilst the way women grow and birth babies has not changed in millions of years, the ways our health as a nation and the ways in which maternity care is delivered and received certainly has. Never more so than in the last 40 years. We now have testing and screening so that abnormalities can be detected earlier fetal surveillance is available for at risk babies and the appropriate care free and accessible to all women.

If we do indeed look at the wider picture we see a whole new one emerging. Of the seven babies that died, two occurred in the 1960?s one of which had a suspected diabetic mother. Hardly a good inclusion criteria in a controlled trial by today?s standards. One baby had pneumonia that is irrelevant to induction of labour. One from a Chinese study that the baby had Meconium aspiration following refusal of induction of labour by its mother after a positive amnioscopy. Another from Meconium aspiration at 43+3 weeks, which would not have any bearing of induction at 41 weeks. One was from a placental abruption, which could occur at anytime. One was a baby of 2.6 grams and clearly growth retarded and the mother had received no antenatal care, (Menticoglou and Hall 2002).

Based on these finding where is the evidence that there is an increased risk of unexplained still birth at 41 weeks? How are the benefits to the 20-25% of women and babies that are being daily induced being demonstrated?

How are we as professionals informing women of the risks of induction of labour versus continuing the pregnancy? Are women given the information in a true and unbiased manner? I doubt it. Just as women are only told the "risks" around birth when they are planning a home birth but conveniently not told the many more risks associated with going into hospital. A woman screened for having a Downs Syndrome baby is informed that if she has a risk factor of less that 1:250 she is a low risk and further action not recommended and yet at 41 weeks gestation she is offered (if indeed it is an offer) IOL because the (very dubious) risk of increased stillbirth is 1:1000.

In a detailed review of the literature Menticoglou (2002) also highlighted details of a women who died in a hospital awaiting treatment for what appeared to be fulminating eclampsia. She was waiting because the wards were full and busy. As many midwives know the wards are often full to capacity and often due to the amount of routine induction of labours that are on going at any one time. Where do women and babies such as these two who died feature in the calculation of risk?

Other than the Hannah trial no further studies were looked at in depth for taking into account when devising the N.I.C.E guidelines. There are other good retrospective studies looking at this subject. Many that shows a substantial increase in the caesarean section rate for routine induction of labour and no significant difference in neonatal outcomes for women and babies that are left alone to continue with healthy pregnancies. The cost to the maternity services must be phenomenal. A cost that could be put to far better use. Money that could spent on improving services so that midwives come back to the profession. Then women and babies who ARE at risk from on going pregnancies may well be highlighted appropriately through good antenatal care instead of a hurried 10 minutes at each antenatal visit and routine induction for all!

We also must not forget the baby in the whole process because it too plays its part in the instigation of labour. The baby is not a passive receiver of the labour process and induced earlier may not have the readiness for labour itself. The biggest reason of all (22%) given in the National Sentinel Caesarean Section Audit (RCOG 2001) was fetal distress. Even given the many wrong diagnosis of fetal distress that exist how many of these babies were induced before they were ready to be born.

Routine induction of labour has become a socially acceptable norm. It is time we professionals, we who are the instigators of what over time becomes "normal" in women and societies eyes, stop this barbaric treatment and give back to women the respect that they and nature deserve.

thisisyesterday · 24/06/2011 17:33

findabetter.... what's even more scary is those who take the medics word as gospel and undergo unnecessary operations.

the fact is, there is no magic cut-off... you cannot say 100% certainly that a woman's placenta will start deteriorating after a certain date.

in the OP's case there is already some debate over how far pregnant she is!!! so don't be so silly.

i know a lady who has gone to 43 weeks almost to the day with every single one of her 4 babies.
she, and her midwives, and her consultant ALL agree that she just cooks them for that long. Her mother did too.
her placenta was fine each time with no signs of deterioration, they were quite interested in this i believe

your pregnancy length will also be determined in part by how long/short our menstrual cycle is

so to suggest a one-size-fits-all approach to childbirth is just wrong!

I only know 3 people who have had stillbirths. all of them happened under 40 +5
I am not campaigning to get people induced before 40 weeks because of it.

kilo · 25/06/2011 10:43

Hi Ali, just to add my 2 pennies worth....i was in exactly the same position as you, the birthing pool was bought and set up at home, and then the little monkey refused to come on time!!! i also had all the horrible pressurising, scare-mongering talks, they make you feel so guilty and irresponsible...then you go home upset, and then you get angry, and then all your freinds and family start texting and calling to see if 'anything's happpened'...i really do feel your pain and hope you're feeling better now...i ended up going in to be induced at 16 days over, and had the full works with intervention, ending in emergency c-sec BUT it was ok! i actually didn't find the monitoring intrusive, in fact it helped me during contractions as DH could watch the chart and tell me when it was peaking and when it was easing off! my midwives were fantastic and made me feel so cared for...the syntocinon (sp?) drip is a bitch and i won't have it again, so i ended up with an epidural, but even with that, c-section and DS in intesive care for 2 days, i was able to breastfeed with no discomfort, and fell in love with him and bonded straight away...overall it was the most wonderful experience and every time i go into the hospital i feel pleasantly nostalgic! i think the fact that i was preparing for a home birth meant that i was pretty relaxed and once i was in hospital i just decided to go with the flow and not fight what was happening. also my friend who has just been induced with twins and was dreading it, had a vaginal labour with g&a, which was quicker and easier she said than her first 'natural' one. HTH.

Ali79 · 28/06/2011 09:53

Just catching up on all this after the safe arrival of my daughter! What reading all this tells me, and following my own experience (below) is that there really is no right answer- it is what the mother can emotionally, mentally and physically best cope with (and by the way, I'm pretty sure the placenta can start deteriorating any time from 37 weeks, depending on the mum....)

So, here goes:
After cramping last Monday following my first acupuncture appointment, I returned to have another treatment on Tuesday morning, followed by 30 mins of cranial osteopathy (where incidentally he told me my pelvic floor felt very 'locked'; no idea what that means). Whether or not either of these two things made any difference whatsoever I will never know. And don't care!
I started mild, regular but infrequent contractions at 3am Wednesday (incidentally around the same time I probably would have done had the hospital got their way and induced me Tuesday night). These continued throughout Wednesday, which was remarkable given we were at the day assessment unit having our first post dates monitoring appointment which wasn't much fun. I was pretty sure my waters had broken (trickle) just before we went to the appointment, but was told in very patronising terms by the head of the Unit, Prof someone, that I was a first time mum and likely just had some incontinence.
We returned home, having booked a 'backstop' induction for sunday night (and a C-section for Monday, still hedging my bets!). Curry and a glass of wine followed, and then things got going.
But I think, in hindsight, we were so worked up from discussions with the hospital that we then lost a bit of faith. I was doing really well at home, and then about 5am Thursday morning I suddenly convinced myself I hadn't felt the baby move for a few hours. We were very tired by then, after the last few days of anxiety, and so we headed into hospital to be checked out (and in the process abandoning a home birth, which by that stage, we were too tired to argue with). Turns out my cervix was fully effaced, only 1cm still, but my waters had broken when I thought they had. Hospital were actually great at that point- didn't absolutely insist I stayed given I was very early on, but suggested I might be able to get some rest if they put me into the birthing suite to relax and then they could also keep an eye on the baby. We agreed. Thursday pretty uneventful- my boyfriend went home, I got a tiny bit of sleep, he came back in the evening, I had a bath and we walked round the grounds of the hospital. He went to sleep, and then things got started again once the room was dark and quiet. By 3am Friday morning, contractions were starting to be quite painful so I had my TENS on, but I was exhausted and had a bit of a meltdown. Midwives gave me a shot of pethidine (I know the downsides but my god, it was definitely the right decision in my case), which allowed me to sleep for two hours, and when I woke up I was finally into more active labour.
By now, it was obvious I wasn't going to make it through without additional pain relief given how long things had gone on. gas and air was doing the trick but I was very nervous about how long things had taken so far and how long they might continue to take given how tired I was, and so we went down to the labour ward.
I had 16 hours of active labour: no doubt slowed down by an epidural which we tried to keep dialled down to a manageable level of pain (which I actually didn't know you could do- quite a good tip!) to keep things ticking along, and obviously not being able to move around didn't help.
Fantastically quick, and non destructive (!), second stage, thanks to some brilliant coaching from my midwife and possibly my concerted perineal massage efforts, and baby Thea finally arrived at 9pm Friday night, 8 pounds 5, and not looking the least bit overcooked!! We stayed in hospital until sunday morning for observation given she was post dates and my waters had broken 2.5 days earlier. All seems to be fine so far- we're at home, day 4, and she's settling in well. We are over the moon she is finally here and extremely relieved.
So I didn't get my homebirth. And of course in the end, I didn't care.I have learnt to keep an open mind on what can happen.I'm sure a combination of anxiety, drugs and perhaps a body just built to labour a long time made this a lengthy process. Hopefully the first of those at least will be less next time, and I might have a quicker experience, which in turn will make me feel more able to get through with just gas and air, which in turn will make it quicker still (great vicious circle this!).
I remain convinced that waiting rather than being induced was the right decision for me personally, even though induction might have been quicker. But that is the decision for every mother to make on a completely personal basis.
I hope some of this is helpful, and I'm now looking forward to getting started on the baby mumsnet threads, rather than the pregnancy ones!!

OP posts:
babyonbord · 28/06/2011 10:16

what is it with people not wanting to listen to medical advice? why even bother going to the hosiptal if you are so sure they are wrong and you know so much more than they do, why not do it yourself? I'm sure what your doctor meant is that if you aren't going to listen to them then you cannot hold them legally accountable should something go wrong and baby die. Personally i would listen to the people who spent 10 years going through medical school as they tend to know best, they certainly have saved my life serveral times, you might be lucky and your baby born healthy and naturally after 42 weeks then again you might not be is it a risk you really want to take?

charlottery · 28/06/2011 11:08

Congratulations!!

TransatlanticCityGirl · 28/06/2011 11:40

Congrats Ali! And thanks for sharing... yes, you're right, there probably is no right or wrong answer. There are so many healthy babies born every day, whether induced or spontaneously, with drugs and without, that there can't possibly be just one correct answer :)
Glad you are both home safe and sound and healthy.

Flisspaps · 28/06/2011 11:50

Congratulations!

spudulika · 28/06/2011 11:58

Yay! congratulations Ali!

And lots and lots of people who start the homebirth journey with baby number 1 (as you have done) end up having their homebirth with baby number 2 (ok, ok, you're probably saying 'never again!' at this point.....).

ragged · 28/06/2011 14:06

Wow what a marathon! How wonderful to hear you talking so positively about it. Congratulations & get as much rest as you can now :).

Bumpsadaisie · 28/06/2011 14:33

Well done Ali and welcome baby Thea! lovely name.

Anniewwjj · 14/10/2021 04:38

I'm 41 + 3 and I've planned a natural hynobirth. Unfortunately little one has other ideas and isn't making an appearance so I've been offered an induction. I'm absolutely petrified of hospitals and being induced. Has anyone else had this experience if so how was it and how did you deal with the anxiety? Help!

summerhillgang · 15/10/2021 16:21

@Anniewwjj hey! I am 41+3 also, planning home water birth and likewise petrified about induction. So no advice but sending you solidarity.

I am going to have a sweep on Sunday if nothing has changed. I am also trying to organise outpatient induction past 42+4 and give birth at home if no issues but I'm 39 so sure they'll find something m. I am going into hospital for expectant monitoring from next Tuesday so will be 42+1, probably will be daily.

This is definitely one of the hardest periods of my life! I am begging baby to come x

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