Is wanting a natrual birth unrealistic? Is it all down to luck?

[digggers]

my own experience and the experience of friends really makes me wonder about this. There's no ryhme or reason, it's just so random.

Are people who prepare for and experience the birth they want just lucky? Is childbirth something you can prepare for and influence? Or is an open mind and a thankfulness that in our country we have medical help on hand the best approach? Or should all medical help be viewed with distrust!

Piscesmoon, I was lucky like you to have wide hips, also lucky to have small babies but for dd1 was unlucky that she was breech and that despite hanging upside down and the version that they tried she still did not turn round. Overall, feel very lucky and grateful that she and I both were safe and healthy in the end which is the most important thing.

Dunno, violethill, I had a natural birth (if by that you mean a vaginal, no forceps or epidural/pethidine) and tore quite badly, and I don't mind at all if people say I was lucky. Because I know I was lucky: I spent several weeks on ante-natal ward and some of those women had horrendous stories to tell. One girl had had go through two stillbirths knowing that the baby was already dead and still the doctor didn't want to refer her (quite natural, nothing abnormal). She only found out in her third pregnancy that she had lupus. Another woman had nearly died in eclamptic fits during delivery. Another one had her appendix scar stuck to her growing womb.

Of course I was lucky compared to them. Why would I feel offended about that?

Doesn't cut both ways to me. I would not have been offended if they had said "lucky you", but they would have been perfectly reasonable to be offended if I had suggested that my more positive experience was due to some superior way in which I handled my labour preparation.

I said in my post cory, that we're all 'lucky' if we have a healthy baby at the end of it. There's always someone worse off - and people who can't conceive, or suffer multiple miscarriages, or a stillbirth, would consider ANYONE who has a live, healthy baby as extremely fortunate.

I think it's very odd to say that anyone is 'lucky' in the birth process though - unless they happen to have had a totally straightforward natural pain free birth -apparently that really does happen in some cases - but I have yet to meet anyone who has experienced that in real life.

'Luck for sure;

Never did a birth plan and never really had any strong feelings about natural or not. Decided to put my faith in the midwives and have an open mind.

I agree with sparkilingsea.
I have never done a birth plan - no one has even examined me before 8cm dilated.
In fact with the first I was asked, when I finally got to the labour ward, if I wanted pain relief and I said 'yes -anything!' but they examined me and it was too late and I was stuck with gas and air.The 3rd one was so fast that I wouldn't have dared have a 4th-I probably wouldn't have made it to the hospital!
The midwives have been very pleasant.

It is sheer luck.(and I am very grateful!)

God I find these threads depressing.

What is it about women that we all turn on each other on this issue? I would really love to see all of this energy directed to the issue of the patchy provision of decent midwifery care (both in terms of units and within teams/wards) themselves. Why do we devote so much time arguing and so little jumping up and down about this?

It really shouldn't be a women's responsibility to prepare for labour to the n th degree. It should be like any other process where you use an expert- sure, you need to educate yourself to the point of understanding your options and what you want to achieve, but then you should be able to trust (anywhere in the country, any time of night, city or country) that the professionals will assist you in achieving that. It is a scandal that women can't do that. It ain't like running a marathon- you can't train for it. It's more like engaging an architect to design a house or something. Some people like to really get involved in the design process, others just know the end result that they want and can trust the architect to help them get there (and to be frank where it just ain't do-able)...

sorry. Feminist rant over.

i don't find this thread depressing atall, I've found it very interesting and philosophical! thank you to all involved for helping my pondering. Sure there are always going to be strong opinions in such an emotive issue, and I don't agree with everyone , but i think we've reached some good conclusions. Or atleast I have for myself.

I can't see why it is depressing! I'm glad you found it helpful. Women like to think they have control in 21st century, and to a large extent they have a lot, but there is a huge element of luck too. Women shouldn't feel a failure because they didn't control it as they wished.

Yes I think, a lot of luck involved.

With 1st delivery I had pethidine and gas and air, it was a horrific birth and I would never have coped without.

On the second delivery I decided to manage as long as I could and gave birth before, I needed anything.

With the third it was awful, I begged for gas and air but as babies heartbeat was dropping was not allowed.

I originally thought I would have natural child birth but it wasn't to be.

Yes, some luck involved. Position of baby, your own health and unique physiology.

But more than luck also sometimes. There are really simple things that women can do to boost their chance of having a normal delivery, namely not give birth in a consultant led unit with a high c/s rate, they can opt for midwifery led care in a low-tech environment, they can opt for a home-birth, and if none of those things are feasible, they can opt to have a doula or another mum support them through the birth in addition to having their partner there.

I have big babies (9lbs 6oz, 10lbs 12oz, 9lbs 3 oz) and had gestional diabetes. I stuck my neck out to get the birth I wanted with my second and my third, employing an independent midwife to maximise my chances of a normal delivery. I also opted to have my second baby at home (the 10lbs 12oz one). It was hard going against normal protocols for high risk mums and I never would have done it with a first baby.

"It ain't like running a marathon- you can't train for it"

Women who've successfully used hypnobirthing techniques, which involve a lot of practice, may well argue otherwise!

"It's more like engaging an architect to design a house or something"

Don't you think that the mother has vastly more to do with getting the baby out than the midwife? The midwife can sit on her arse and do very little during the labour. Baby will still be born!

I am not sure if luck is the right word - I would say it is probably more to do with a woman's physiology. Some womens' bodies are just better at it than others and they are not always the people I would expect.

For example, there are people who I know who are really fit and have run marathons but still have had terrible birth experiences.

In saying this, I do think there are things you can do to make the most of the experience. I am expecting DS2 in 6 weeks and have just finished a hypnobirthing course. Before starting, I was absolutely petrified about the labour and also the thought of possibly having another cs (if it came to that). Having just finished the course I feel more relaxed about the labour.

I will keep you posted about whether it actually works on the day.

I say read Ina May Gaskin's Complete Guide to Childbirth - masses of amazing advice in there to give you faith in your body's abilities. I found the hypnotherapy CD fabulous too. My first choice was for a home birth, and had to fight hard with the MWs, some of whom should have been struck off for the way they spoke to me about it (ie 'we won't let you..') It's every woman's right to have a HB/natural birth if that's what you want. If you need to change your mind for some reason, the only disadvantage is transferring very quickly in an ambulance during labour. I had to.. Not brilliant, but to labour at home is fantastic. Remember, don't allow the medics to bully you. None of them can predict the future. All mine were wrong about the baby's size and positioning, despite a late scan (and none of them apologised afterwards, either). Not many of them will support your rights, it's up to you to know them and assert them. I went through lots of stress before realising they could advise, but the decisions were ours. Get your partner to deal with the NHS if you don't want the battle. I had a doula too, and she was utterly amazing throughout. Highly recommended..

I don't think it's about luck, I think it's about preparation and having the right attitude. I had a horrific phobia of dying during childbirth, and as I'm allergic to opiates I opted for a home birth-my consultant was fine and he said go ahead, the midwives put up a fight. So I made it clear that I was not ILL so a hospital was not necessary...the fear of God is put into women when it comes to childbirth and it's ridiculous. Learn to listen to your body, the less intervention (medical and midwives changing "shift") the better. I had one midwife and I told her aside from examining me the first time (I woke up 9.5cms) that she needn't interfere. A woman's body is designed to give birth, I think women have a negative attitude, and rely on pain relief, for something that is relatively straight forward in terms of nature. (I'll await the wrath of the women who've had medical interference)

AliGrylls, I used hypnobirthing and it was good. Apart from the very end part of labour where DS got into difficulties, I felt pretty calm and in control.

Good lord .

tittybangbang - No, I strongly disagree. Hypnobirthing is preparation. It is not training. Training means putting your body through what it will experience on the day many times in preparation, building up to the full effort. Marathon runners 'train' when they put in the miles again and again. Hurdles train when they practice their jump again and again. You can't put yourself through mini attempts at labour.

I am not against preparation. If I ever have another, I might even give hypnobirthing a try, but it's preparation, not training. That's why I was quite specific about the language I used.

The analogy with the architect was not a perfect one I know- no analogy is. But I feel very strongly that, on threads like this, there is a serious risk that women come to feel that the type of labour they get is their responsibility, and therefore their fault if it does not go to plan. Whilst it often is the case that you have to prepare to the nth degree,learn a lot of biology, a lot about hospital protocols, etc to increase your chances of a natural birth, that is a failing of the system. That type of birth should not be the preserve of those with the time, money, enery and education to learn about them and demand them. My point was that the medical profession are there to assist you through the process, and you should be able to tell them you want a bungalow without ending up with a block of flats.

I sometimes feel that all this focus on 'well I did x, y and z', with the inevitable face off it creates with women who feel they have tried their best and ended up with results that they didn't want detracts from the central issue of improving servies to women.

UK maternal death rates= 8 in 100,000
Afghanistan maternal death rates= 200 in 100,000
This difference is not one of "attitude" or "preparation" but one of medical intervention.

I didn't feel unlucky to have a C Section. I felt profoundly grateful that my life had been saved by the hardworking doctors and nurses of the NHS.

I planned my second birth meticulously - did loads of reading and mentally prepared for it and the recovery. It was a fantastic experience. I had an ELCS.

It's just luck.

I planned my birth and prepared for it carefully. I was very relaxed about it and did absolutely everything right - and ended up having a 28 hour labour and emergency c-section.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that preparation is hugely beneficial but that's not always enough in some circumstances.
I can't believe anyone can actually think a bad labour/birth experience is simply down to having the wrong attitude!

I think it is partly luck of the draw... (as well as the usual issues of baby's position etc). With my first I had about five shifts worth of newly qualified midwives who kept panicking about minor things, a very long labour and dd1 finally delivered by a doctor (who seemed to decide as the midwives kept calling him every five minutes he might as well stay). My second dd was delivered in three hours by the most senior and most experienced midwife in the unit and the experience was fantastic despite dd2 trying to come out sideways and having the cord around her neck twice.
I consider myself lucky both times because I ended with a healthy baby but the experience was rather different and unrelated to how much I prepared myself...

'I don't mind at all if people say I was lucky. Because I know I was lucky: I spent several weeks on ante-natal ward and some of those women had horrendous stories to tell. ' well said cory

violet good point about the skewed statistics for CS in places like the US - it would be interesting to explore the circumstances of these sections (ie were they really needed to protect the mother/baby?)

muddle 'I think it's about preparation and having the right attitude' as others on here have said earlier on in the thread, the implication of that statement is that those who end up with interventions have some sort of responsibility for that in that they didn't prepare or want it enough. That can be offensive.

"the skewed statistics for CS in places like the US"

I'm pretty sure the skewed statistics are down to the litigation culture.

Better to have 100 unnecessary interventions than miss 1 necessary intervention if you're a doctor. Especially when they can charge you for everything because of private insurance

Melancolie - it's not our 26% c/s rate that's soley responsible for our low maternal and death rate. It's the fact that women in this country have access to medical care prior to pregnancy, have proper antenatal care and are looked after by a trained midwife during labour. Maternal mortality in the 1960's in the UK was only a fraction of Afghanistan's current rate - and that was with a c/s rate of 5% and before routine ultrasound scanning in pregnancy.

You will find plenty of midwives in this country who are convinced that the majority of emergency c/s and assisted births today are avoidable with better care.