Is wanting a natrual birth unrealistic? Is it all down to luck?

[digggers]

my own experience and the experience of friends really makes me wonder about this. There's no ryhme or reason, it's just so random.

Are people who prepare for and experience the birth they want just lucky? Is childbirth something you can prepare for and influence? Or is an open mind and a thankfulness that in our country we have medical help on hand the best approach? Or should all medical help be viewed with distrust!

All I can say is that I have had 3 lovely births in 3 different hospitals and didn't have anything in the poem -which was what would happen in a life/death situation.
I am afraid that I couldn't take talk of milk and honey and palm fronds-it sounds very like my SIL and makes me cringe! Not getting at you Selina-I am sure you are fantastic for the right person, my SIL would absolutely love you.
My whole point is that everyone is different. Some people want to 'open up like anenomes' and some would hate the analogy.
One is not better than the other-it is better than the other for the individual.

I liked the poem, thank you Selina.

:)

Reading the childbirth trauma thread is not going to be a good idea, is it? Or should I read it to get ideas about how to avoid trauma?
When you are preparing to give birth for the first time, what's being 'realistic'/prepared and what is unnecessarily scaring yourself? It's so hard to know...normally I think 'knowledge is power' but for birth, 'expect the best, prepare for the worst' feels like it could end up being self-fulfilling, since so much depends on a woman trusting her body and not being too 'in her head'.

Argh.

I liked your poem Selina.

It reminds me of my 'failed' homebirth, and eventual crash section.

My baby was alive. YEA!

Would I have the idiocy to have a homebirth birth plan again - I would not! But that's what wisdom is isn't it?

Midwives aren't trained to help your baby when the shit hits the fan, and it hits the fan regularly and quickly.. that's the truth..

And Titty - try to keep your personal attacks off this thread. I am neither drunk, nor a troll as you claim.

@piscesmoon I'm glad your experiences were nothing like this poem. I'm not trying to say many women want to open up like anenome's lol but they do have hopes and dreams about their births and babies!
@zazen, glad you liked the poem. I would disagree with your comment that Midwives are not trained to help your baby when the shit hits the fan. All midwives are trained and have regular updates on emergency procedures like shoulder dystocia and how to resuscitate babies. At homebirths they carry emergency equipment and oxygen and are trained to anticipate emergency situations and advise women to transfer in for more assistance.
I'm glad you and you're baby were ok
@Miffster, Its a hard call, ideally I would say, surround yourself with positivity, but forewarned is forearmed!
Some women like to read everything, others prefer nothing and to just trust in the process.
Would you consider a doula?
If you are thinking about homebirth, try to find a support group in your area and talk to other women that have had their babies at home.
S x

"I am neither drunk, nor a troll as you claim."

Sorry, it was just that what you said was so bizarrely ignorant I assumed you were saying it as a joke.

I now understand you take yourself seriously, so I'll try to do the same.

"Midwives aren't trained to help your baby when the shit hits the fan"

I'm wondering how you know that midwives are untrained to deal with obstetric and neonatal emergencies that might crop up at homebirths? Do you have any specialist knowledge in this area? You say "It reminds me of my 'failed' homebirth, and eventual crash section" so I assume you booked a home birth yourself at some point. Did you not talk to the midwives who you booked with about what would happen in the event of an emergency at home? If they didn't have this discussion with you then they were remiss. Maybe you could tell us more about what happened to you - it might help us make sense of your comments about homebirth, comments which insinuate that women who plan to have their babies out of hospital are naive, appallingly ignorant and/or simply uncaring about their babies' health.

I had my second birth at home and experienced just such an emergency - a shoulder dystocia followed by the midwives having to resuscitate my baby. Happy to say that they dealt with both emergencies calmly and with a great deal of expertise, particularly the shoulder dystocia. But that's because they undergo regular intensive training in dealing with obstetric and neonatal emergencies and carry the necessary equipment to deal with the vast majority of problems in such a way as to allow time for transfer (if necessary - it wasn't in my case).

I'd also like to ask you whether you're able to explain, given your view that having a baby away from hospital is very dangerous, why it is that studies which draw on thousands and thousands of births in the UK don't find any more deaths than are found amongst a similar group of mothers birthing in hospital.

Would be very grateful if you could address yourself to this question.

Also would like to know what you feel about the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the Royal College of Midwives releasing a joint statement which describes homebirth as 'safe for women with uncomplicated pregnancies' and a choice 'which confers many benefits'. How would you explain their support for homebirth if it is as dangerous as you clearly believe 'common sense' dictates it must be?

We all have hopes and dreams, but they are different. It isn't good or bad, better or worse, but you are sensible to have something that suits you and not be made to feel that you should feel a different way.
I want a capable midwife who is calm and dependable with a sense of humour.
I don't want candles and I don't want music and I don't want a birthing pool. This isn't to say that people are wrong to do it that way-of course they are right if it suits them.
It is all immaterial in my case anyway. My last experience on the labour ward consisted of the midwife saying 'I'll just examine you' and me saying 'can I push now?' She said 'yes' and he was born. As I say-sheer luck on my part!

Well I wouldn't call those things shit hitting the fan Selina - they would be normal risks in a birth setting. It's a messy business, and nothing goes according to plan IMO.

I mean immediate resuscitation and being able to deal with maternal hemorrhaging.

Birth is messy and unpredictable, and surprisingly visceral and shockingly physical, and there are so many things that can go wrong.

I know from my own experience I wanted a homebirth and had done extensive research, read al the books, listened to the CDs, and had a great team of experienced midwives, and was part of a very supportive homebirth group, but the shit hit the fan nonetheless - very unpredictably and suddenly.

The highly trained and experienced midwives could do nothing for us and we had to be transferred to the place medical intervention was possible. We both nearly died in the end, and there was no medical indicators - I was fit and healthy and my babe was fine up to the start of labour. Still nobody knows what happened.

So I do think that there should be more midwife led birthing centres, with access to all the machines that sometimes are absolutely necessary to save the lives of babe and mum.

A see how it goes flexible approach with medical back up immediately available is probably the safest for babe and mum - and for me, that is not a home environment.

Titty

"I mean immediate resuscitation and being able to deal with maternal hemorrhaging"

They carry drugs - the same drugs that would be used as front line treatment in hospital - to manage PPH at home.

And actually the VAST majority of serious PPH's are related to emergency and elective c/s (emergency c/s increases your risk of a serious PPH by about nine times, elective c/s merely quadruples it). And of course as a low risk mum you're about twice as likely to have an emergency c/s if you book a hospital birth.

Re: neonatal resuscitation - did you miss my comment about me experiencing this with my baby at home? Or are you just ignoring it?

You also ignored the question I asked as to how you could explain the fact that homebirths aren't linked to higher rates of neonatal or maternal deaths than hospital birth.

Would want to say - you obviously had a terrifying experience giving birth, but you can't only make sense of this subject through the lens of your own very negative experience. You must know that?

I think that we only make sense of it through our own experiences.

Titty I feel quite uncomfortable reading your posts, I am pleased you are so pro-home birth but to me you are coming across as a bit of a zealot and quite abrasive in how you are standing up for home birth.

Maybe it is triggering something in me that feels worried about me being suspected of choosing a home birth for idealogical reasons, rather than for the safety of me and baby reasons. I don't want to be thought of as having issues with the medical profession in general - I just at the moment think a HB is safer for me and baby for various reasons. I'm quite put off by how evangelical some are about HB - I think if I do end up transferring, having had all the anti-hospital stuff would just contribute to feelings of failure and sadness.

In the end, of course it is all about respecting our own and other women's choices, of course our experiences - positive and negative - colour how we think about birth and labour. I just don't think jumping down anyone's throat is supportive or kind.

"I think that we only make sense of it through our own experiences"

Well - maybe you do, but I try to draw on other people's experiences as well as my own, plus professional knowledge and an awareness of what the medical research says. You can't generally have a reasoned and informed discussion of the issues around maternity care and birth without doing so! Insights formed by your own experiences are very interesting and important, and a crucial part of the dialogue. But they're not the ONLY thing that's worth taking into account when trying to make health choices for yourself and your baby.

" I just at the moment think a HB is safer for me and baby for various reasons".

How does that differ from what I've just said?

"I'm quite put off by how evangelical some are about HB"

But 98% of people have their babies in hospital, despite a lack of medical evidence of benefit for large number of this group. Most people believe that it's vastly safer having your baby at hospital than at home. Don't you find that 'evangelical'? Especially the moral language used by posters like Zazen, who're implying that women who have home births are ignorant and irresponsible?

At least those of us who're speaking out about the benefits of homebirth for low risk women have the evidence on our side!

"I think if I do end up transferring, having had all the anti-hospital stuff would just contribute to feelings of failure and sadness."

There is nothing 'anti-hospital' or 'anti-health professional' about what I or anyone else has said on this thread, just a basic acknowledgement that of the fact that births are more likely to go wrong in that particular environment. There's nothing 'ideological' about this statement and I'm sorry if reading this fact makes you feel uncomfortable.

Would want to add, that I suspect you're frightened of hubris. It can be scary to stick your neck out over a homebirth, knowing that there will be people out there who will think - like Zazen, that women who opt for home births are naive, yogurt-knitting, doctor-hating fools, who almost deserve to have things go wrong to teach them not to be so damn naive about how tough birth can be.

Don't worry - if you tell us you're not a yogurt-knitter we'll believe you. I'm not a yogurt-knitter either and I have no problem with doctors or hospitals - they can be very useful in certain situations. I gave birth to two of my babies in hospital (I had high risk pregnancies) and was very grateful for the care I had.

"I know from my own experience I wanted a homebirth and had done extensive research, read al the books, listened to the CDs, and had a great team of experienced midwives, and was part of a very supportive homebirth group, but the shit hit the fan nonetheless - very unpredictably and suddenly."

As a dozen of us have said on this thread already, for births in hospital and at home:

• You cannot eliminate risk, only minimise it
• You cannot control birth, but you can influence it

It's very sad that some people have such negative birth experience. No matter what you do, there will be some individuals who are unlucky.

However, the experience of a single person has pretty much no read-across to the experience of a population. A high proportion of women who do the kind of preparation you did will end up with positive birth outcomes.

Most of the people posting negatively on this thread either have no real understanding of risk and probability, or have a limited knowledge of facts and evidence from the literature around birth.

I would urge anyone coming new to this subject to do their own research, keep an open mind and ask every question they can until they're satisfied that they understand the answer.

Do not make birth choices based entirely on other people's anecdotes. They can be helpful and interesting in terms of providing context and illustrating the range of experience out there. They should not be allowed to get in the way of facts.

PS Titty: thank you for continually challenging opinion with evidence.

"I think if I do end up transferring, having had all the anti-hospital stuff would just contribute to feelings of failure and sadness".

BTW - if it's any reassurance, most women who transfer in following problems during or after a homebirth don't regret having booked a homebirth to start with. In fact they are generally very positive about their choice - transfer or no transfer.

I myself transferred in to hospital during my third labour for help as my labour wasn't progressing normally. I can tell you I wasn't disappointed or sad - I was DELIGHTED to be going because I was bloody sick of having contractions and wanted to get on with it and get the baby out!

Home births are safe BECAUSE they take place within the context of a highly developed and sophisticated medical system of antenatal, birth and postnatal care. It's not a 'failure' to transfer in if things aren't going right. It's an acknowledgement that sometimes things don't go right in birth through no fault of ours or anyone else's and that in situations like this hospitals and doctors are just what you and your baby might need!

Togorama

In support of Titty...

If you read this entire thread (and other similar ones), you will see that Titty has been stating the facts, and challenging misinformation, about natural birth and homebirth throughout.

She has had to repeat herself again and again and again and again because people keep coming back and posting the same irrational or misinformed statements again and again and again and again.

I think we should see Titty's recent posts as replies to the thread as a whole rather than the last few individuals. In this context she is actually being quite restrained.

I am very much for women being given the choice of what feels best and most reassuring for them, as long as there are no medical contraindications. But I am also very much for women being allowed to decide as individuals what they personally feel most comfortable with.

Personally, I think I would always have felt more relaxed in hospital, not just for the medical reassurance, but because I never relax very well in my own clutter, particularly if I have let strangers in to see it. I just don't do cosy bedrooms and soft lighting: it does nothing for me. I thought it was a relief to go into hospital and get away from the distractions of every day. And would feel very awkward in a birthing pool. So I get a creepy feeling when people tell me that I have to be more relaxed in a setting that they would be more relaxed in. And yes, afraid the poem did zilch for me.

So I was lucky to give birth in a setting which suited me (very friendly, well run, large teaching hospital with extremely good record for maternal care/breastfeeding etc), and (I have to say) without the horrors in the poem: midwives and doctors did not shout at me, the only reason they cut me was because I shouted at them when I realised it had to be done, I had immediate skin to skin contact and in my second labour, when I had to have a caesarian (baby not well), the operating team were some of the jolliest and most reassuring people I have ever come across. I don't see why one has to assume that all doctors are cold and clinical, or all midwives or doulas warm and reassuring: surely they are people? I found the doctors who saw me in pregnancy and labour were absolutely lovely and the students were sweet; the only person I could not take to was the first midwife I saw, but thankfully she didn't hang around for long.

"But I am also very much for women being allowed to decide as individuals what they personally feel most comfortable with"

I don't think there's anyone here who wouldn't be in agreement with this.

"So I get a creepy feeling when people tell me that I have to be more relaxed in a setting that they would be more relaxed in."

Where has anyone said this?

Personally I also don't do 'cosy bedrooms' and 'soft lighting'. I felt happier at home milling around during labour with all the TV's and the lights on, knowing that there were people in the kitchen chatting and making tea.

"I don't see why one has to assume that all doctors are cold and clinical, or all midwives or doulas warm and reassuring: surely they are people?"

Has anyone here - or anywhere actually, argued or suggested that this is the case? I'm assuming they must have done, otherwise you wouldn't be refuting this point surely? Can you say where you have read/heard people expressing this opinion?

I would like to emphasise that although I booked into a MLU and had a natural birth with my first child, I do not knit, listen to whale music or eat lentils. I think it's important to acknowledge that fact

Seriously, my reasoning for planning my birth and exercising my choice as far as I was able, was to reduce the risks of intervention. I didn't want an epidural because it's an invasive procedure and statistically increases the risk of forceps/csection. I didn't want to be assisted by midwives I'd never seen before in my life. I didn't want to be surrounded by doctors who are more used to seeing complications - I wanted to be assisted by a midwife who had the confidence and the remit to make her own judgements.

I think that's pretty similar for many women

"I do not knit, listen to whale music or eat lentils"

It's a bit sad that it's still acceptable on mumsnet to stereotype people and ridicule and belittle their birth choices.

Absolutely titty. I looked at the facts, and made an informed decision about where to give birth. It was about safety and trying to avoid interventions, not about my music of choice in labour.

Funnily enough, with all this talk about music in labour and how useless it is (incidently I respect people who knit, and wish I could,I do listen to whale music and I sometimes eat lentils!)there is actually plenty of research to suggest music can be beneficial (physiologically) in labour,
See- (and yes I know they are not BMJ or highly respected jopurnals, but its still interesting!)
www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/sound3.html
www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494120_15
www.intent.com/taztagore/blog/music-spiritual-birth
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2702.2009.03028.x/full
I know lots of women nevber end up listening to their carefully prepared labour music mixes, but as a Doula, I try to keep these parts of the birth plan for them (candles, music etc)
In the hospital setting it helps you feel in control, relaxed etc
I have used bellydancing (with music) to help women get into labour and in early labour (belly dance was originally a birth dance)
www.shimmygoddess.com/pregnancy.htm
20 out of the 25 births I have been present at were in hospital, so its interesting to look at ways to improve the environment there.
deverra.blogspot.com/
S