Swivelling a car seat so it faces side window

[Carriedthemfar]

I’m just wondering if this is unsafe, or not. My three year old keeps reaching across and hurting the baby and in desperation I’ve resorted to spinning his seat so he’s facing outside rather than looking straight ahead?

Sorry I messed up my reply but I’m sure you get the gist! @MrsWimpy thanks, they are the right height but he just manages to get out, not totally sure how I’d check but have followed all the advice.

If it's a joie 360 then they are notorious for being easy to escape from. I would try a different seat. Safest option would be rear facing - at least if he gets his arms out then he will still get some protection from being rear facing. Definitely post a photo for a fit check - with these seats people often remove the inserts too early which exacerbates the escaping issue, as leaves more room for their arms to get between tummy and straps. As a last resort could consider a seat with an impact shield - the cybex anoris is £££ but very safe, the other cheaper ones aren't as safe but better than an unrestrained child.

Thanks, finances are tricky at the moment so I’ll consider what options are best. I really appreciate those suggestions.

Thanks, finances are tricky at the moment so I’ll consider what options are best. I really appreciate those suggestions.

Try a better car seat. Maxi cosi they cannot get out of! Make sure straps are pulled super tight on whatever car seat

You can’t use the seat swivelled, that’s incredibly dangerous. They’re only designed to be in that position for taking DC in/out. Put the baby in the front with the airbag off. Then as for the 3YO escaping, you could try a Cybex seat with an impact cushion, the pallas is the cheapest model I think and is currently on sale for £150 at Mamas and Papas.

I would say that it is very dangerous having the child face sideways in a carseat. The straps are designed to spread the forces of a sudden stop across both shoulders/chest. the straps actually stretch so as reduce these forces further. If sitting sideways, the edges of 1 strap will transmit all the force into the neck are ... and there will be no stretch movement in this direction.
Also, physically a child's head is large and heavy. We do not have good movement n our necks from side to side.... compared to front to back. It would also worry me that much more damage would be done to the neck / spine with all the forces of an accident being transmitted side on.
As others have said seats and harnesses have not been designed or tested for use sideways.

I would put the toddler in the front with the airbag off. Much easier to distract him like that. Tell him it's a treat but only if he stays in his seat. It might surprise him into behaving. My youngest constantly got out of his straps. Drove me bonkers. Especially when he got hold of the nappy bag and covered himself in sudocrem.

We have a swivel car seat and if it’s facing the window so out towards us it isn’t secure and it wobbles you can spin it round with little force.

Once it faces the back of the car you have to move a lever to swivel it back.

We have the maxi cosi pebble 360. Not sure if yours is the same but I’d say it’s not secure.

Please get some advice on the fit of this car seat. Join a FB group like car seat safety to get advice. I would suggest that you might to buy an ERF seat.

I think this car seat group has a buying a selling group for second hand ERF seats. This comes with risks but might be an option?

This is what I do and works a charm.

OP I’m not sure how old your baby is, but DD1 is almost 3 and DD2 is now 4 months and in the last few weeks DD1’s behaviour has regressed significantly, she behaves similarly to your DS2, and I think she’s realised the baby is here to stay, plus the baby now sleeps less and needs more attention during the day so she’s getting jealous. Putting her in the front stops her escaping, stops her trying to wake the baby in the car and gives us some time just the two of us which makes her feel special

Can you turn off airbag and put baby in the front?

The fire brigade used to offer help with fitting car seats so so you think if you asked your local fire brigade to have a chat with your child that he might listen to them?

Otherwise I would be inclined to strap him in and then make him wear a Chinese finger puzzle.

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As other posters say, no you absolutely can't drive around with him facing the window, there is no car seat which allows this. It will be in the safety warnings section of the manual probably the first page. Driving around with him half out the straps is also essentially him being unsecured - this is extremely dangerous in an accident. You can also be fined for using the seat inappropriately/letting him be unrestrained (though police are sympathetic to the issue of small houdinis, you still have to try and do something about it).

Have you got the straps set to the right height on your car seat? Sometimes people leave the headrest in a low position like for a younger child and it makes the straps really loose.

I agree with another poster that the Joie seats are quite easily escapable because the harness pads are bulky, which makes the gap bigger at the tummy. I find the Britax seats better with smoother harnesses, but as he's 3, I don't want to make any direct recommendation in case he's big for his age. (I can help if you know height, weight and age with months). I don't know that it is the Joie though if it stays in place at the side - is it a Silver Cross? In which case the harness won't be the issue (unless it is too low).

You can try the Five Point Plus in addition to the houdini strap - it's a wrap around thing that blocks the gap they escape through. However children may still be able to push it down. But it might be the combo of the two is enough.

If you have no luck getting him to stay in a 5 point harness, some people have luck with the Cybex Pallas type seats. They convert to high backed booster, so will last him a long time and you can save the spinning one for your baby when she is older.

Mind you, at least you are trying to keep him in the seat. We drove past someone at traffic lights today, they had a spin seat, the seat was facing the inside of the car and the child was sitting on the mother's lap in the back

But yes, it has to be clicked into position, rear facing or forward facing, with the straps on properly. Otherwise it can't do its job of protecting your child.

This is a really really great, free course for behaviour management - when you find that escalating the punishments doesn't work, it's normally because you're trying to use just punishment on an issue and it won't work on it's own - just squashing a behaviour doesn't do anything to replace it. What you need to do is work out the positive opposite behaviour and how to incentivise this. This is very very good at teaching you how to do this and it has tools you can use right from the first (10 minute) video, with each further session building on this. I find it really bite sized and accessible even with other stresses going on just to watch/read one of these every few days or once a week.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting

Good luck!

What would the positive opposite behaviour be, though? And I don’t think he’d care anyway, just doesn’t matter if it’s positive or negative he just doesn’t care. Thanks for detailed reply.

The positive opposite would be rewarding any journey he doesn't escape the seat during. You could maybe keep a bag of sweets in your glove box, and give him one at the end of the journey if he hasn't escaped. Maybe engineer a few very short journeys, where he doesn't have time to escape, so he gets the reward and can see the cause and effect, then work up to longer journeys.

So he's unsafe in the car. I would look at getting another car seat personally that he couldn't get out of

Also OP not sure if I missed that you’ve tried this but have you gone all out with the distractions? Ipad, juice carton, snack (nothing he could choke on obviously but stuff like melty puffs or a yoghurt pouch). I know none of those are ideal but it’s definitely better than lobbing stuff at the baby, fitting the carseat wrong or getting out the straps.

I’ve honestly yet to do anything that makes any difference to his behaviour.

It's explained better/in more detail in the course but -

The positive opposite to getting out of his seat is staying in the seat properly with the straps on his shoulders.

The positive opposite for hurting the baby is some kind of gentler play e.g. tickling the baby's feet, showing them a toy etc. (Of course, not in the car, but if you can get him to stay in his seat then you might not need to work on "not hurting baby in the car" because he won't be able to reach, hopefully.)

A good way to think about it is basically like what you'd do for potty training - you can do this over literally any behaviour issue. (It's a good analogy too because of course nobody would potty train by shouting at the child when they have an accident! You know that you also have to train them in what TO do).

The first tool you learn in the course is "special praise" (which sounds a bit wanky I realise but it does seem to be total gold currency with children this age) - so every time you put him in the seat, you'd go totally OTT amazing "Wow!!! Look at you! You've got your seatbelt on!! What a good boy!" etc. Even though he's only had it on for three seconds. It doesn't matter - what you're looking to do is give him the message: I REALLY REALLY like it when you have your seatbelt on. That's good. That's the behaviour I want to see. Then any time you look back and see that he has his belts on, you can repeat this special praise again. Like when potty training, if there happen to be any other adults in the car, clue them in on the game as well and get them to be really excited and impressed too (and then just to ignore if he does take the seatbelt off, but obviously you stop the praise and attention at that point, and preferably stop the car as soon as it is safe).

You could also use some of the other tools in the course like practising - bring his car seat into the house if you can safely use it like that (if not, borrow another one if you can, or even make a pretend car seat with "straps" or use a buggy, high chair etc) and tell him you're going to play a game where he sits in the seat, you strap him in, and he has to stay in the seat. Again go overboard with the ridiculous praise. Use challenges "I bet you can't stay in the seat for 1 minute!" then act disbelieving, surprised, excited, when he does stay in the straps. Put another chair so you can pretend to drive, if you like. Let him have any normal distractions he'd be allowed in the car, it's not supposed to be a test of boredom endurance. Or you could do this in your actual car sitting in it parked, or with the engine running but - it just might be more tricky to keep the baby happy while you do this, so maybe only an option when another adult is available.

Another tool is shaping or scaffolding - which means you build up from where you are now to the point you want to be. So it might be time - if he currently tolerates the straps for 1 minute, then you work on 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, then 10 minutes and so on. (You might find once you get to about 15 minutes, then you don't need to train any longer periods). Or if he currently is happy with the straps around his waist but not his shoulders, you could shape by building up - straps around waist only, straps very loose but arms in, a bit tighter, a bit tighter etc. Again it would be best to practice this when the car is not actually moving, because it's not safe to travel with the straps very loose either.

If praise is not enough you could also look at a reward scheme, like a sticker chart or a points chart.

You can combine with mild sanctions, like the loss of a privilege, or a short time out e.g. facing the window with the car stopped, if you have to stop the car to get him strapped in again - these will be more effective when combined with the above positive "training" type behaviours, compared to when you're just trying to use punishment/telling off etc alone.

If you do see him take the seatbelt off it is a good idea to stop the car as soon as possible and strap him back in, or wait until he puts his arms back in himself. You CAN do the praise once he's strapped in again - again this is showing him the contrast between the lack of attention/praise when he takes his arms out, and the OTT attention/praise when you see him with arms in. You won't have to do the OTT praise forever but it is important to do it as much as possible while you're building the habit of the new behaviour, because the current behaviour is currently very reinforced - he gets free, which he probably likes, he gets loads of attention (even if it's negative attention), he gets to hurt the baby which gets him even more attention/power. Try to avoid giving attention beyond the minimum of obviously needing to stop and get him safely secured again.

Once he starts to get the idea that he gets praise/attention/rewarded for keeping the belt on in his car seat, you could also start looking for positive things to say about it e.g. books to read, TV programmes, there are some cartoons on youtube etc (search "safety seat cartoon"). They might say "seatbelt" instead of "straps" (but TBH with my DC we just call it all seatbelt, seems easier and prevents arguments). Make him the "safety officer" in charge of making sure everyone has their seatbelt on etc.

Isn't the swivelling just for ease of getting them in and out, and they aren't meant to travel in it swivelled to the side?

lol we’re getting nowhere with potty training either 😂

Honestly, sympathies. My eldest was over 3 and my middle one was nearly 4 when we cracked potty training. But it's an analogy to explain the intensity of the praise etc and the concept of using positivity and small steps rather than just trying to stop a behaviour you don't like, if that makes sense?

Do you have concerns about SEN at all? If there are developmental concerns about e.g. frustration tolerance, understanding, speech, behaviour in general then you might benefit from OT assessment as they can look at whether there are any underlying issues that might be making things difficult overall.

I don’t know what to think. The thing is he isn’t bad all the time, he’ll sometimes often even cooperate with just a ‘sit properly, good boy’ but when he decides not to cooperate he’s awful and I just can’t do a thing with him.

If he does it sometimes, that's really good because it gives you a lot more to work with. It's much harder to "develop a behaviour" (that's what they call it on the course, not my term) if the child isn't doing it at all - it can also mean that there's something about it that is stopping them from doing it. If he's doing well sometimes, then try really bigging it up when he does. You can try it for appropriate baby play too. The idea is if you pick a small number of things that you're trying to change, you can make a concentrated effort to notice when he does that behaviour you're trying to encourage, and it isn't too overwhelming because there are only a few set ones.

And like others have said it's also a good idea to try and keep all the basics topped up too - some outside time and/or active time every day if you can, some one to one attention if you can every day, doesn't have to be loads, even just a bedtime story or something, try to keep positive comments higher than negative ones in general (a good trick for this is if you notice yourself telling him off or telling him to stop doing something, try to notice four things that he does which are good and praise him for those, even if they are really basic things, if you can't think of anything, just try a spontaneous "DS I love you").

I find with my DS it's mostly when he's hungry, tired, worn out (e.g. from nursery) needs a poo or needs to run around/have some positive attention that his behaviour tends to take a dip. I know that is a lot to juggle when you have another LO as well. Sometimes it helps if you're trying to work on one thing like being nice to the baby etc to relax on other things like trying to get him to be more adventurous with food - just stick with the safe bets even if it means he isn't eating a very varied diet, for example. And keeping things simple as much as possible rather than trying to rush around every day doing loads of different activities. It is a bit boring, but predictable familiar activities like a walk to the closest park and playing the same games and watching some TV together is quite soothing to a toddler who is having a hard time with something e.g. transition to being a big brother.