which seat??! so overwhelmed!

[Copps]

Can anyone please give me advice about which car seat to buy my lo. I need a group 1 seat (preferably) for when he grows out of his infant carrier. I have isofix points in my car, but not fussed if i use them or not... just so overwhelmed by all the styles and choices!!!

Some children can make it till 2 years of age rearfacing in the first class. You need a long seatbelt tough to go around the seat.

I bring up Recaro because they are releasing the Monza Nova IS which uses an impact shield. So to sum up the likes of Stiftung warentest. ADAC, Which etc consistently find shield based seats perform better but please refer to the INDEPENDENT tests that prove otherwise

I do however believe rear facing is best

lenats so are you saying that the Kiddy seats are exactly the same as the older types which were retracted? I thought that Kiddy seats had been tested to higher standards than the standard UK tests (which of course Britax, Maxi Cosi etc do themselves too)

As I said before this is academic to me now as DS has outgrown the seat. I'm just finding it quite surprising as I thought it was considered a very safe seat at the time that we bought it.

I don't dispute that rear facing is the safest option, BTW. It's just that I don't drive and I needed a seat which I could fit very quickly in many different models of car. I like the shield model, it seems very practical to me and I think it's important that there are practical solutions. I found a lot of the downsides on the first link very spurious too, and things which would apply to any forward facing seat (like legs dangling down) or any car seat (side impact wings being large - well, they all should be!)

Get a Kiddy one. Ours are the Comfort (I think) which last til approx age 12. Brilliant seats. V safe and v easy to take covers off and wash if child vomits. Think Comfort now called Guardian?

""So to sum up the likes of Stiftung warentest. ADAC, Which etc consistently find shield based seats perform better but please refer to the INDEPENDENT tests that prove otherwise""

It was Stiftung Warentest that found out the neckloads to be the same as in many forward facing seats with a harness.

In order to find out why seats score the way they do in those tests, you´ll have to know exactly how the points are distributed, why and how that affects the result.

Lets just say the entire userfriendlyness section overshadows the collision test results for a start.

Another VERY INTERESTING piece of information would probably be that no test dummy has instruments in the abdomen.

If you click on the links in previous posts you´ll find some interesting studies

I´m not debating which is safer: rearfacing or forward facing.

But is the shield REALLY safer than forward facing with a harness? Are the shield seats being marketed on false grounds.

Ofcause Kiddy defend their products!!!! They are - after - Kiddy´s products.

Bertie

This is surpricing to most people.

Those seats are very userfriendly as you put it. They win big time on that.

As mentioned above, the test dummies used today lack instrumentation in the abdomen completely - something that is important since many internal organs are there and the shield restrains children across the abdomen. There seems to be higher risks of ejection. Then comes the neck loads which don´t seem to be lower.

Shield seats are often recommended by parents, who only want the best for themselves and whoever they recommend them to. No questions asked about that. The recommendations are mostly based on test results issued twice each year all across Europe. The big question right now is; are those shield seats (regardless of manufactorer) really safer than forward facing seats with a harness system???

Large head supports work properly if the child is not out-of-position - meaning leaning forward in order to be able to see out the window, or out the front screen or in order to communicate with siblings.

Or

Forward facing seats: the driver does not slam on the brake to avoid an accident

This is all very interesting, I am currently looking for next stage car seats for my dts (13 months) and wanted RF but the expense/faff (we have 4 kids and just working out WHERE to put who is a major headache, without all the restrictions of RF seats!) is putting me off. And we have nowhere we can ahve them fitted as not in the UK.

I see someone mentioned the Britax first class, sounds like a good compromise. Is there anything else similar?

pressed post too soon..

I meant to ask, is ti possible to use something like the Britax first class rearfacing to 18kg, or does it have to be turned FF at 13kg?

many thanks

Claire

First Class must not be used rearfacing after 13 kg. A seatbelt only is not enough after 13 kg

Another one to suggest the Britax first class plus which will RF to 13KG. DD2 is 2yrs in a couple of days and 12kg - I have just turned the car seat to FF.

It is a big car seat, so tricky to get baby in when its a low car, but not impossible.

I'm not aware of any other seat which RFs to 13kg. There are other, cheaper, group 0/1s but they don't go to 13kg.

Thanks lenats

Mine are not huge kids so that should last for a while anyway.

Not sure what you mean about the seatbelt though?

Lenats

The two links show one study which is 10 years old. It is like saying that a current Ford Focus is not safe because the Mk1 might be iffy in one respect, the logic is just not reasonable. Technologies change and improve, so I think we can dismiss that as irrelevant.
With regard to Britax's link, firstly the rollover test used is incorrect as cars travel forwards, not sideways so it should be done with a one sided ramp that a car drives up in order to make it roll as is standard that every car manufacturer uses. The test on show takes no account of deceleration forces which may be critical. Secondly they show one seat - is that truly enough to base an argument against an entire technology?
Finally my favourite quote - "Roll-over represent only 5 to 10 percent* of car accidents.
*based on Britax internal estimates" So in other words made up stats.
This is nothing more than a pathetic marketing stunt. You say Kiddy are going to defend their seats, true, but a Britax study is hardly going to be objective and this one seems to be extremely flawed

Kernewek

there is a link right here in this thread that leads you to a pdf file - A study about 5-point harness vs shield from december 2012. You seem to keep on missing that. So you are absolutely wrong about it being irrelevant. The concerns are still the same, and they seem to be valid I´m afraid.

A roll over is a roll over no matter if the car is going forwards or backwards.

Believe me I have had parents here with me who have had to pull over time after time after time to pick up the little ones who mangaed to get out of their shield seat allmost or completely. One pair of parents had to pull over 3 TIMES on the way to visit me. Their son hung by the neck under the shield all 3 times. others have crawled over the shield and out of the seat.

Side impact tests done on car seats are also incorrect and irrelevant then, because the car is hit by barrier going sideways into it. In the real world, they would be moving forwards and most drivers slam on the brakes prior to impact.

Here is the PDF

It seems as if you can´t find, and keep refering to the 13 year-old study all the time because of it.
www.sikkerautostol.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Safety-Performance-of-Shield-Systems-in-Comparison-to-5-Point-Belt-Syste....pdf

Besides this

If Britax, Besafe, Maxi Cosi wanted to make shield seats, they could do it right away. They have the finances for it I´m sure.

One querious question.

How much is the advance on shield seats compared with conventional forward facing seats with a 5-point harness? In percentage that is..

So what does this article say? Inconclusive, needs more research, well I'm not going to argue with that.
No a roll over is not the same as the forces are completely different depending on how it happens. The version Britax show is less and less likely to happen based on new car technologies. Yes, I guess you could argue side impact testing is equally irrelevant as at the end of the day crashes are in their nature unpredicatable, which, I guess is the problem with crash tests. I see you are having issues with shield seats but this does appear to be reasonably isolated and certainly not my experience, and apparantly not the experience of others on this forum. But I guess this underlines the importance of getting seats properly fitted and trying them out first.
At the moment I cannot see any conclusive proof of these issues other than a very questionable study by Britax where they have clearly tried to make issues about something that is hitting their sales. Give me proper proof and then fair enough.
I actually have to say I am not a massive fan of Kiddy seats and think the Cybex offerings are far superior in finish and quality, but that is a matter of choice.
I'm not sure why you bring BeSafe into this. They are a rear facing specialist, and a very good one too and have done more for rear facing in the UK than any other brand and should be commended. Why would they start going into forward facing shield seats? As for Britax, well they have a hefty offering of rear facing seats, very few of which are available in the UK. Why? Ahh they're made for the Scandinavian market, because that is what is popular there and therefore commercially viable in the same why that market forces dictate forward facing harness seats in the UK. At the end of the day these are by far and away the most popular. Rear facing and shield seats are not commercially popular in the UK. Hence why Britax and Maxi Cosi don't do shields, the market is too niche. At the moment, anyway...

Besafe could make this type of seat if they wanted to, just like the others. They don´t. They make forward facing too and not just boosters.

You have to think "Europe" and not just the "UK". Shields are very popular across Europe... still these companies don´t make them.

The makers of shield seats have discriminated against seats with harness system for years. Just saying...........

Isolated? Hmmm... I hear of issues from people I have never met before across Europe too.

A Q-dummy with instrumentation in the abdomen is current under developement - could be a few years still.

I´m on mainland Europe by the way. Rømer (Britax) and the others have good financial reason to make shield seats overhere. So why don´t they.......

www.kiddy.de/blog/uk/2013/03/impact-shield-v-harness-which-is-safer/

So why would Britax stop making them - especially with the popularity of the shield system?

Honestly, this is a system that isn´t so well tested after all.

Until we see some dummies with more instrumentation such as in the lower neck and the abdomen, the children riding in this type if seat are basically performing the job as crash test dummies.

sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I just cannot get my head around WHY do Which who are a reputable company have impact shields at the top of their best buy tables for that age range, and not 5 point harnesses?

Theonlyone, because Which? testing is bollocks.

The bulk of a seats score is User Friendliness and of course these are the easiest to chuck in any old car.

Where can I find other results from car seat tests? I have to FF as cannot fit another RF in our car, or at all in our camper van . The new britax king plus II is out soon bit haven't seen any reviews