Anyone tried scheduled as opposed to demand breastfeeding?

[jasper]

It seems most current experts on breastfeeding support demand feeding.
I consider myself to have been something of a failure on the breastfeeding front with my first two. The details are unimportant, but briefly, they would both suck for hours on end, I never once had the sensation of fullness in the breasts, never felt my milk " come in", never leaked...And this was with the most wonderful support from midwives and breastfeeding counsellors...Anyway I lasted about six weeks with number one, less with number two.This has made me wonder if perhaps demand feeding might work out where demand feeding had failed for certain mothers, eg. me.
I recently read Gina Ford's book with interest. She suggests scheduled feeding ( I think three hourly at first). I really do not want to open up the whole breastfeeding debate as I am sure demand feeding is best in some way, but having failed twice I really would like to hear from anyone who has succeded with scheduled breastfeeds where demand feeding failed.
Please don't suggest ways of making demand feeding work!

Suedonim... not all babies do it naturally and not all of us have your instinct ;-)

I'll keep mine simple as I'll only be repeating alot of whats already been said. I bf my son on the GF routines. I had her book at the ready from pregnancy but found the 1st 2 weeks I was just settling into motherhood myself and just took my lead from baby, then from 2 weeks on we went for the routine and we were both very contented. I didn't get on too well with the expressing so omitted those bits and I also omitted her 'military routine of when I could go & do the washing up!' - other than that I had a wonderful time & will follow them with No2 I'm expecting.

Fabulous response and lots of great advice! Thank you all so much, particularly thanks to those of you who must have been dying to criticise the whole concept of scheduled feeding but managed to keep quiet!
As I said I specifically wanted to hear from those who were helped by trying a more scheduled feeding routine, either as a last resort, or just because things kind of drifted that way.I am so encouraged by the response as it seems this approach works well for some mothers.As I said,following the current guidelines on breastfeeding( which I repeat I am NOT criticising!!!) made me a very unhappy mummy last two times.
Looks like I have all the equipment...I already have a small electric breastpump ( found it sore but effective - didn't get so much as a drop with the Aventis hand held pump!)and have both GF's books for advice/reference.
Pupuce, ensuring I eat and drink plenty will NOT be a problem!Thanks for your generally very helpful and encouraging advice.
Honeybunny, thanks to you too, not only for helping with the achey hips ( been doing your exercises to great effect)but for your advice on this thread, and for making me not feel so bad for also wanting to punch the lights out of all those well meaning souls who kept saying "The more he sucks the more you will produce".
Good point sml about a third baby possibly having very different habits. Mind you I'll still have the same old set of boobs!
Thanks again, everyone.

I'll risk repeating and saying if people find GF works, then fine for them! But don't lets call her a health professional. She has no formal nursing or nursery qualifications at all - not that that means she can't offer support and information to mothers, but it does mean we can't assume she has done the basic studying and reading....she bases her advice on 300 babies(by no means all of them breastfed), but that's just not good enough, sorry. She would do better to set this in the context of understanding the literature which reflects studies on thousands and thousands of babies and mothers.

Pupuce - Miriam Stoppard's bf advice and info is always highly questionable. MS does not write her own books, BTW, though she does read the text.

And GF certainly does say she is always right! Look at the tone of her writings - 'her' babies 'always' do this, they 'never' do that, mothers 'must' do something and must 'never' do something else. Something else is 'essential' or 'crucial'. If you are finding the routines don't work, then you are not applying them consistently enough.

Now as I say, this suits some people, and that's fine. Honey is dead right when she says constant repeating of 'demand feeding' is useless if it is not working for a particular mother and baby, and both are miserable. That could be a situation which needs a bit more subtlety than repeating dogma of any kind....it might be the baby was not always hungry, or could have benefitted from a change in bf technique, or positioning, or maybe feeding from one side only at a time (some babies do - it can somtimes help with colic) - all sorts of things.

I am happy to live and let live, and to accept the individuality of every mother and baby - not something GF feels very comfortable with!

message withdrawn

In defence of robinW, Rozzy, I must say that I found my two could be thirsty, but not necessarily hungry. Rare, but it did happen.

Sometimes water was what they wanted - but only once b/f was established and they were a few months old. I'm not talkng about newborns here.

When my babies became a little warm ie on a hot summer's day, they did get thirsty without being hungry.

I also remember HVs and doctors suggesting I try water on the odd occasion.

RobinW does not say at what age a bottle of water could be appropriate. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

LOL, Pupuce, but I didn't say 'all' babies do it naturally.

Well, I dunno....breastmilk is mainly water anyway!! Breastmilk supplies what the baby needs for food and liquid, so a bottle of water satisfies thirst as well as hunger. Mothers in equatorial Africa and South America breastfeed without giving their babies water - a scarce resource in many parts of the world, and not one to be poured down a baby's throat when Mama has stuff in her breasts that does the job better : )

If some mothers find giving a bottle of water helps them and their babies, then fair enough....the odd drink of water (as long as it's clean, natch!) is unlikely to mess up bf, or harm the baby. I just don't understand why it is supposed to be less work than just feeding. By the time you have boiled and cooled the water, sterilised the teat and the bottle, poured the water in and put teat and bottle together, you could have stuck the baby on the breast! But what seems time-consuming, fiddly and unnecessary to me personally is clearly a handy hint to someone else....: )

Doh! I meant a breastfeed satisfies thirst as well as a bottle of water! Shouldn't hit 'post' without hitting 'preview' first : )

jasper, I really cannot add anything other than; as I obviously did not have any idea at the beginning with a new baby, I am afraid I worked on the assumption if it was'nt nappy, sleep, then it must be hunger that is making the baby upset, as a consequence I was feeding for 5 mins at a time (because I did not know any better/any other way) and feeding like this 23 times a day was our record. So it was out of sheer desperation and no HV help that I discovered GF and what a relief, I can almost say on reflection that I enjoyed the bf, however, after 4 months for me it was with a mixture of relief and sadness that we went on the bottle (literally for both of us).

Some people can get on with demand breastfeeding and some can't, and I must say that I admire those that can, I found it a huge invasion, yes selfish I know, but the schedules set out in GF book sorted out a lot of resentments that I had towards my baby.

In defence of Robinw I think what she meant was that we are all told about not giving a brestfed baby a dummy, and not giving them a bottle due to nipple confusion. By experience this advice can be c**p. Some babies are particularly 'sucky' and therefore offering water or a dummy is a way to see if that baby is hungry or just crying for comfort. Demand feeding is all about giving a baby feeds when they want, but sometimes (especially for the early days and 1st time mums) you are unsure what that cry means. I think this is what Robin was saying (but i am sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong!)

The problem with all advice from friends, health professionals, and indeed mumsnet is that every baby is different and we can only offer ideas of what worked for us. When you get someone saying 'this is the correct and only way' then you know it is a load of pants!

Quite right, Crunchie - and this is what gets up my nose about GF, because she does lay the law down....and while it helps some, it doesn't help others and the reason why it doesn't help others is because she doesn't understand the basic physiology of it all.

BTW, Rozzy, not sure where you got the idea from I thought breastmilk didn't supply everything a baby needs...'cos I do. Yes, introducing a bottle is a risk, though a bottle of water is likely to have less impact on the milk supply than a bottle of formula.

Giving a baby something else to suck to 'see if they are really hungry or not' puzzles me. If it suits you and it doesn't mean you end up bottle feeding when you wanted to bf, then ok....but there is a risk, especially with babies who are bf ineffectively, or who or not thriving. A baby will suck on a dummy for comfort and a poorly-nourished baby will sometimes make do with that, lacking the energy to cry for a feed. It may have something to do with personality too. This is why the first thing to ask if a mother is worried about her baby's growth and her milk supply, is 'is the baby using a dummy?' If so, then it can be helpful to cut it out, or cut it down.

I've never heard of offering a baby water or a dummy to tell if they're hungry - what signs do you look for? I gave a couple of mine a dummy, but they rejected it and were happier sucking on a clean finger, if it was comfort sucking they needed.

TikTok's comments about Africa etc started me thinking about how mums used to breastfeed in the days before we had clocks and were able to time feeds. I guess they just had to go with the flow. (Sorry, awful pun!!) Seriously, though, it would be interesting to know how mothers have breastfed their babies in days gone by or in Third World countries, where they have different pressures. Or in Norway, come to that, where their BF rate is 95%, I believe. What does Norway do differently to us, as I imagine that otherwise we lead similar lives?

What seems to be forgotton by some is that breastfeeding is not solely about nutrition. Therefore if you truly wish to breastfeed your baby, then you must accept it is about comfort and communication as well.
I do agree however that all babies are different and indeed one other point to make is demand feeding works both ways. It is just as okay to wake a baby for a feed if it suits you better.

But GF must understand SOME basic physiology otherwise why on earth would her routines work for ANYONE, let alone the thousands of people that have used them successfully?

I'm NOT saying they work for everyone, it is an individual thing, and her manner is quite off putting, but it is just a book, you don't have to buy it, she's not a 'government guideline' (god forbid!)

I've only skimmed through the posts so hope not to be repeating any comments. I think Tiktok has answered very sensibly - if I remember correctly Tiktok you are a b/f counsellor so your advice should be sound. In my opinion the scheduling would not make for successful breastfeeding. The success or otherwise is mostly down the first few weeks and scheduling is not recommended then. Afterwards the baby tends to schedule himself naturally and so if he feeds every 3/4 hours then that is fine. Newborns are very small and cannot take a lot of food at once and so will want to feed frequently anyway.

The thing I found about b/f was that it changed so much over time that it was pointless to try to impose any kind of schedule or to even want to. Sometimes inevitably the 'feeding' was for comfort but what is wrong with that? If it is inconvenient you can always take baby off after 5 mins. Also I didn't give water - in fact my baby didn't have other liquids till he was taking regular solids - at around 6 months.

If you are having problems with supply some books say to spend a whole weekend just feeding, feeding as much as possible. Also pumping too. A lot of people will have problems and it can take a long time to work. I'd say my baby was really about 3 months before he and I felt confident. By that age he was bigger (he was quite small at birth) and stronger and then he was able to do short feeds of maybe only 10 mins at a time. It is pointless to say how long a baby should feed for unless you know his age. Common sense applies - if it is taking an hour then something is wrong but don't expect a newborn to only take 10 mins. Also my newborn tended to feed during the daytime every hour - my midwife called this 'loading' - he wouldn't fill up on one feed but would gradually get his fill over the course of the day. This is quite normal. Babies are all different but generally speaking by around 3 months they will tend to take bigger feeds. I think we expect too much of them to get into routines too soon.

Anyway I am rabbitting on ....

This is what La Leche League has to say ...

www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/schedule.html

Does My Baby Need to Be on a Schedule?
Babies are as different from each other as are adults. Some babies, like some adults, naturally prefer a regular schedule with predictable times of feeding, sleeping, and activity. Other babies and adults seem to thrive on less regular schedules. As you get to know your baby and learn to recognize his/her cues, you will probably see some consistent patterns of sleeping and feeding, but they may vary from day to day. If well-meaning friends or relatives pressure you to "put that baby on a schedule," think about whether the schedule truly meets your baby's needs or if it's meant to please other adults. Learn to "watch your baby, not the clock," and know that responding to your baby is more important than trying to regulate him or her.

Newborns need to eat very frequently, since the have tiny stomachs and since breastmilk is digested very rapidly. In the first few weeks, babies need to nurse ten to twelve times per day, and their feedings will gradually space out as they grow older. Any schedule that prevents newborns from breastfeeding at least every 2-3 hours (or less during growth spurts!) could potentially cause the baby to gain weight poorly.

Healthy full term infants need to nurse every 2-3 hours during a 24 hour period. This equates to 8-12 feedings per 24 hours. A newborn should not go longer than 3 hours between feedings for two reasons 1) so that they get adequately nourished and hydrated and 2) to ensure that your breasts are stimulated enough to establish a full milk supply

And ...

www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/increase.html

How Can I Increase My Milk Supply?
This is a common breastfeeding question. When mothers observe certain normal changes and behaviors, they may assume their milk supply has decreased. This is often a ?false alarm?. Other times, a mother's milk supply may truly need to be increased. This FAQ will help you determine if you need to increase your milk supply as well as give you ways to increase your milk supply if appropriate.

The FAQ, ?Is My Baby Getting Enough?? at www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/enough.html also pertains to milk supply. Reading that FAQ will help you learn the indicators that your baby is receiving enough of your milk. If your baby is thriving on your milk then you can be assured that you have an adequate milk supply.

At times, mothers are unnecessarily alarmed about their milk supply. They may not be aware of the normal process of breastfeeding. For example, by about the time a baby reaches 6 weeks to 2 months in age, mother's body has learned how much milk to make. Around this time, many women no longer feel ?full?. In addition, baby may be only nursing for five minutes at a time. These are not signs of decreased milk supply. They simply mean that both mother and baby are becoming more adept at breastfeeding. Mother's body has adjusted to the requirements for her baby and baby has become very efficient at removing the milk.

Some mothers become concerned about their milk supply if their baby begins to have fewer bowel movements. By about 6 weeks after the birth, colostrum is no longer present in a mother's milk. So this may mean that baby's bowel movements will decrease to one every day or even a few times each week. This is normal.

Another age-related ?false alarm? is that babies will experience several "growth spurts" in the first few months of life. Generally, these occur around two to three weeks, six weeks and three months of age or they may happen at any time. These are days when baby wants to nurse longer and more frequently to build up mother's milk supply. Follow baby's lead on this by letting him breastfeed as often and as long as he wants. This will help bring up milk supply quickly. The breasts work on the law of supply and demand. The more baby ?tells? mother's breasts to make milk, the more milk she will have.

By allowing your baby to nurse more frequently for a few days, your body will receive the message that more milk is needed for your growing baby. Once your supply has increased, your baby will usually return to his usual routine.

If, after reviewing the ?Is My Baby Getting Enough? FAQ and ruling out the false alarms mentioned above, you find that you do need to increase your milk supply, get help. If your baby is not gaining well or is losing weight, you will want to keep in close contact with your baby's doctor. Often, improving breastfeeding techniques will help resolve the situation quickly, but in some cases slow weight gain may indicate a health problem.

Here are some ideas that may help you to increase your milk supply. Look them over and consider which might work for you.

Contact a local La Leche League Leader for information and support. The section of our Web site entitled "Finding a Local LLL Group" at www.lalecheleague.org/leaderinfo.html will help you do this.
Encourage your baby to breastfeed frequently and for as long as he will.
Offer both breasts at each feeding. Allow baby to stay at the first breast as long as he is actively sucking and swallowing. Offer the second breast when baby slows down or stops. "Finish the first breast first," is a good general rule. (This technique gives baby lots of the fatty ?hindmilk?.)
Baby should end the feeding. He may do this by falling asleep and detaching from the breast after about 10 to 30 minutes of active sucking and swallowing.
Be sure baby is latched n and positioned correctly at the breast, that is, lips should be on the areola (the darker skin area), well behind the nipple. An LLL Leader can help fine-tune positioning as well as suggest ideas to ease soreness. Breastfeeding isn?t supposed to hurt.
A sleepy baby may benefit from ?switch nursing? that is, switching breasts two or three times during each feeding. Switch breasts when baby's sucking slows down and he swallows less often.
All of baby's sucking should be at the breast. Limit or stop pacifier use while encouraging baby to nurse more effectively. If you are supplementing, even temporarily, you can give the supplement by spoon, cup, or with a nursing supplementer. These can be viewed and purchased from our online catalogue at www.lalecheleague.org/catalog.html. Contact an LLL Leader for assistance in using these.
Read this section of our Web site, ?Milk Supply? at www.lalecheleague.org/bfsupply.html for other mothers? experiences.

This may be a stressful time. Take care of yourself. Pay attention to your own need for rest, relaxation, proper diet and enough fluids.

Breastfeeding your baby is meant to be an enjoyable experience. If you are concerned in any way, contact your local La Leche League Leader for support and information. You can find a LLL Leader and Group by going to our Web page on finding a local Leader at www.lalecheleague.org/leaderinfo.html.

Hurrah now it is all starting to make sense and less like the gf fan club!
Btw I have just been feeding my baby for the last 2 hours! - I had such a busy day I could not sit and let him feed properly, so he snacked on and off and is now making up for it. So although not ideal he seemed quite happy to fit in with me.