APRIL BOOK OF THE MONTH DISCUSSION NIGHT - come here for Fall on Your Knees chat on Tuesday 29th April

[TillyBookClub]

This is the thread to come to for April's Bookclub chat - we'll be kicking off at 8pm on Tuesday 29th April and discussing the brilliant Fall on Your Knees by Ann-Marie Macdonald.

And just a reminder that you can now vote for May's bookclub choice on our May Book of the Month page - we have six very prestigious Orange Prize shortlisters up there for the taking, so get voting now...

Hello, sorry I am late, what a book, I didn't vote for it because in the blurb it just sounded like story of 4 sisters blah blah blah but the back cover does not do it justice, very dark. James was a monster, but again was it nature or nurture, he didn't have a great upbringing, with his father, and although had to support himself which is mature he had a very immature nature, 13 year old girls

I also found it deeply disturbing that Frances was very stocial about her fathers abuse of her, when Mercedes found her.

Cocodebear, a friend of my mum's gave it to her to lend to me. I kept it for five years and read it at least three times, finally gave it back last week. James is a very dark character but he does for a while at least recognise this in himself, when he joins the army to remove himself from Kathleen's vicinity. So there is the possibility of a redemption of sorts, although it is thwarted.

the book was recommended by fleacircus and suedonim (are you here either of you?) as their Unsung Hero but not sure how they came across it. I was passed it years ago by a friend who couldn't stop talking about it.

it is one of the oddest books - it is disturbing, full of awful images and desperate unhappiness, and yet it compels you forwards and I couldn't get it out of my head. Its hard to say you 'enjoy' it - its more like it holds you in its grip and shows you an entire world that remains real after you've finished.

(joining late and very soggy from the hail here...)

Coco, I read a review of The Way The Crow Flies in the Grauniad which mentioned this as a predecessor. I wasn't expecting it to be quite so intense though.

I thought the key to the whole novel is in those lines just after Mercedes pushes James down the stairs (hit me so hard I folded the page down so I could find it again )

"She knows now that no good act is ever unaccompanied by evil. Thst is what original sin has done to us. That is what makes us human. The necessity of sin itself is the cross we must bear."

I also feel she creates a world that is historically accurate (with the depression, the war, the jazz age) yet also steps outside real life. Its not your average historical novel. Perhaps its all the religion in the book, and the location on a remote piece of land with barren rocks where strange things happen. Did anyone else find it quite magical/spiritual?

I thought there were strong signs at least early on in the book that James was struggling against himself - trying to keep himself away from Kathleen, as fleacircus says. When he first meets Materia and hears she is already betrothed to someone to be married at 16, he describes it as "barbaric", and is also resolved "not to touch her [Materia] that way" when they are first married. So I think A-MM is trying to show us that there is some good in him.

I think she's trying to show us that he knows it is wrong.

Then he goes and sleeps with his very young wife, and two of his daughters anyway...

Coco, interested that you feel Mercedes is responsible for what happens to Frances - because she doesn't speak up at the first incident of abuse? I felt Frances was a very strong character and completely clear about what she was doing - albeit choosing a very twisted path because of her own lack of self-worth after all she'd been through. After all, she opens the books with her baptism of the twins, aged however small she is - her determination is already a deep part of who she is.

sophiewd, did you find Frances' reaction to the abuse disturbing because she wasn't fighting and raging? What did you think about her seduction of Ginger?

I found Frances the most interesting character in the book, and Lily the most appealing. I felt sorry for Kathleen but I didn't find her very sympathetic.

tilly - yes, not the historical novel i was expecting. sometimes i felt the spiritual bits didn't fit well with the rest of the novel though

I agree with tilly re: frances being interesting and lily being appealing.

Kathleen sort of redeemed herself when she went to New York a bit, but it didn't make me like her really.

I think because she was so matter of fact about it at the time but showed itself up later when she was mercenary about money for Lily to get her away. It also raises the question about why of all 4 of his children he didn't try anything with Mercedes

Or amybe he just saw too much of his wife in her and he didn't have sex with her for years

Religion was a really strong theme, but particularly trying to expose the huge gap between what people believe and say and what they do.

squonk, completely right of course about it being her showing us that James "knows" what is right and ignores it.

Doesn't it say a lot that mercedes is quite plain?

The reason I disliked Mercedes was that for all her religious fervour and all her sacrifices for the family, she was prepared to fake the death of Frances's baby to save face, even though no one else was at all horrified/shocked about the pregnancy.

In fact, Frances's pregnancy had brought the family together, caused her to forge relationships with her community and brought happiness and meaning to her life for once - and Mercedes took all that away from her, quite deliberately really. Even a nun was in favour of it, but Mercedes ignored her.

Was she jealous? Given her own failed relationship, virginity and lack of child?

She may very well have been jealous, yes, I certainly felt that she was stubborn and once she had decided on a course of action, there was little swaying her.

I did think though that she may have changed her mind about giving the baby away, and I hoped that she had. I was very sad when I realised that she hadn't after all.

strawberry, i agree - the supernatural elements sometimes a bit laboured, as if the spirits are shoehorned in to push a point. Although i think the ghosts of the past are exactly what she's examining all the way - all the decisions of all the characters slowly building up to a finale where Lily breaks free.

So many people in the book end up searching for their roots - Frances trying to find out about their mother, Lily finding out about her twin and then her father, its almost as if you're cursed until you can put those ghosts to rest.

Ahhh... I see. I hadn't really read it that way - I didn't even really question why Mercedes had hidden the baby, even though it seemed weird after she had apparently gone along with the pregnancy up to that point and been seemingly so supportive.

Going back to it though - she says that the reason Mercedes does not want Frances to have her baby is that she won't need Mercedes any more:

"Everyone seems to think that motherhood is the best thing that could possibly happen to her. Everyone but Mercede. For she knows that once Frances has a child, Frances will no longer need a mother."

coco - absolutely about mercedes being jealous. i think she quite enjoyed being the martyr and making those sacrifices - gave her a sense of power that frances would've usurped with the new baby. therefore destroying that left her powerful again. there's alot of james in mercedes....

yes, flossie, that's absolutely right, I'd forgotten that line...

Message withdrawn

cod - twas very good, wasn't it. Dp loved it as well. Possibly the only book ever we have both liked

Yes, I'd forgotten it too.