Calling all black Mners with university age kids!

[GreenLeafs]

Now this isn’t about universities that are full of black kids, nor is it meant to be about diversity policies the Unis have (some aren’t worth the paper it’s on!). It’s about top excellent universities where young black students feel comfortable and where they are just accepted as part of the student body.

Since I have embarked on the whole uni journey, I’ve noticed more and more, bright young kids deciding they are not going to university A, because it’s ‘too white and unfriendly’ and opting for university B, well below what they are capable of because there are lots of black people there. Oxbridge for instance, not even on their radar despite have excellent academics, supra curriculars etc. My DD and friends have already ruled out certain universities, so I’m hoping to start the conversation here. Where are your dc going or have been?

I lived in the US for a while. Lots of my friends were at historically black colleges. They were not held back by it - quite the opposite. I'd encourage my children to attend one.

40% of my exh intake on his course is Asian, I don't think it's just about diversity on the course though - most of them live at home with their parents and don't take part in any extra curricular so if you attend events at the university it's very white. City universities tend to be more diverse but you get more home students (see above). He's never had any black phd students I know for a fact but has had several Asian and Arab students plus one from Brazil and one from Hong Kong.

Was talking to dh about this last night. We met at uni 20 or so years ago. We were talking about how we were back then. Both of us proud and excited for having broken our own individual and different glass ceilings. We were so excited and full of hope for the future and the broad open minded world we’d be part of. We were talking about how our future children would need to break any glass ceilings, that we’d paved the way. It’s so utterly crushing that in reality we really haven’t at all.

Sorry *our future children wouldn’t have to

@RedMarauder I meant ‘they’ as in black kids as a group not your nieces and nephews. Each person has to do what’s best for them.
Re medical conditions - My dc also has a medical condition that does not lend well to big cities and campuses spread all over town so quite the contrary to you, we are actually looking for the opposite of what you describe which is why Exeter & Durham would’ve been excellent fits.

The city universities are always best - have a welcoming and diverse city, non-campus uni, and then it doesn’t matter as much if courses or lecturers are largely white as very little time is spent in the university.

@Notanotherusernamenow I disagree. As above, cities and non campus Unis are not always best. You have to assess it on a case by case basis to be a good enough fit. All what you describe as the benefits, I would describe as drawbacks. Not spending much time at uni means less of a community feel (a lot of students in cities tend to live at home) which doesn’t help students who are less confident. Not everyone wants to be whizzing around a large city with students spread everywhere, it can make it harder to get to know people. But for the right person, a city university will be excellent.

@Jamdown123 I have several friends in the U.S,none of their dc attend a black universities. I was so curious I asked one of them one day why as like you if I were in the US I’d love to send my dc there. Friend said they as below par. I’d still like to understand what they meant better because I get the ‘impression’ places like Howard, Morehouse and Spelman are excellent but perhaps I’ve bought into the past glory hype. I notice they don’t feature in QS rankings too.

Kamala Harris would say otherwise.......

@Jamdown123 Otherwise as in ...?

Apologies for the intrusion, I'm not black (nor white) but my children are mixed race and the first will be starting university this month.

We looked at a number of universities, some city ones and some small town ones. DC will be going to Bath and is aware that the race experience they might have there will be very different to their upbringing (we're in a London commuter town, fairly diverse).

Other places were turned down for being too white (St Andrews, beautiful but tiny and very white). Hoping Bath isn't going to too much of a culture shock.

Whilst it didn't stop my DC from applying to RG or Oxbridge universities in the first place, they certainly considered cultural aspects such as food and hairdresser accessibility in their final choices.

It’s a difficult one to answer because of the pandemic. My nephew is really happy with his course at Warwick but he has not been on the campus much in the past year.

[quote GreenLeafs]@Jamdown123 Otherwise as in ...?[/quote]
...was at howard

OP myself, my siblings who went to university, my nephews and nieces went to RG and/or plate glass universities.

Myself and my older siblings use to get fed up of people - both black and white - presuming that because we are black we went to specific types of institutions.

Anyway for undergrad those of us without medical issues chose our courses on their rankings, then the distance from home and then chose the actual unis on the fact there was more obvious visual diversity in students when we visited. This means the likes of Exeter, St Andrews and Durham were never on our lists due to the distance from home.

It doesn't mean there weren't issues with some staff/workers hired by the universities. In fact the uni where I did my undergrad has been in the news over this in the last year.

The uni where I did my postgrad actually contacted alumni to ask us about racist incidents during the BLM protests so they could "improve". In my case as 2 other members of my family have attended or in one case is still there doing undergrad degrees I thought their email was pointless.

@PineappleCakes Thanks for your contribution. Universities like St Andrews are also commonly avoided and things like access to hairdressers and ethnic foods are definitely very important. I think Bath (another excellent university) is reasonably diverse?

This thread has gone off course a bit but the question in my mind is are we going to be forever avoiding all these excellent universities? St Andrews, Exeter, York, Lancaster, Durham etc are black kids restricted to UCL, KCL, Imperial, Manchester & Birmingham? The point is no matter how much individual Unis seek to be diverse, if our dc don’t go there they will never become diverse. Racists aren’t exactly wringing their hands over black dc not applying to their lovely elite & excellent universities, infact we are playing right into their hands.

Of course one can go to London Unis but why must we be restricted to only those? They also do not serve the need of every student in terms what they are looking for in either course or environment.
I have advised my dc to apply to the best uni they can get into for their subject. Hopefully, others will see them and feel encouraged to apply.

@Jamdown123 , I’m not in any doubt Howard has turned out some very successful people since it’s inception. To be clear what I’m observing is that black Africans who have migrated to the U.S do not seem to rate these universities, I find they are more popular amongst African Americans. It’s an interesting observation and I wonder what is at the root of it, that’s in addition to the fact I noticed they don’t seem to appear in the QS rankings but there might be a totally separate reason for this.

I sacrificed my happiness, I on't do that with my children's. I went to what is apparently the best university in the country (yawn). It was a very sad three years for me, I won't encourage my children to go there so that others see them and feel encouraged. Forget that. I literally got a headache every time I walked into the place. An actual headache.

I think black students are excellent, getting uni in the first place, and then against all odds getting to the red brick, or Russell group, or whatever else we might like to call them. Therefore, those unis that attract them will only get better.

Racism is very real, and I won't be encouraging my children to live hundreds of miles away from me in the epicentre of white supremacist crap and then get marked down in their exams or dissertations because of it to boot! It's not just local clubs, shops, accommodation where they'll find discrimination, it's in teaching and marking, too.

I rate my children's emotional and psychological wellbeing very highly. Too many generations have suffered needless amounts of racism for me and my kids to be here, we don't need to willingly walk into it. However, if they want to attend my old uni I will support them, of course.

That's my opinion. Durham Exeter, wherever else that as far as I can see don't want us, can stuff it. We don't need them. Times have changed. They need us. Black students will take their big brains elsewhere and raise up those departments.

@Jamdown123 Let’s not turn this into a “I’m a better parent than you” debate because you’re on a road to nowhere with that. We are all trying to do what’s best for our children and choice of university is not solely up to parents either. My role is to discuss and encourage my dc with the best university options on offer and then step back. If those choices lead to another dc being encouraged to do the same then so be it.

OP i just wanted to respond to something you said about Black students not applying. In reference to higher tariff universities across the country, Black students are applying, but unfortunately they are not accepted in to these universities (for various reasons) at the same rate as their white counterparts. UCAS website shows the stats for this trend going back all the way to 2010. Even though more Black students have been applying to higher tariff universities, they are not being given offers at the same rate sadly. Goes back to the point about whether diversity is the issue here, and if it is, what is really being done about it?! When comparing White students with Black students, Black students are more likely to have an offer from a lower tarrif university, but this gap is no where near as wide as it is between White and Black universities within higher tariff univerisities.

In some ways I do get @Jamdown123 point, there are so many issues with universities themselves that many students/families do not want to risk alienation or racism or obtaining a lower class degree - and many more things! BUT! for me the conversation needs to focus on what universities should/can do, rather than the deficit model which sort of focuses on the Black students being the ones not applying, or lacking something.

My experience working in universities tells me that deep down univerisities enjoy being elitist and have no real desire to eradicate or acknowledge racism or discrimination that specifically affects Black people, unless they are literally forced to! Even then, a lot of it is performative. I have experienced this as a member of staff and an MA student sadly.

I was in a minority of 2 at a RG Law Department, decades ago now. It was such a lonely time!

In the early days of BMN, there was a similar thread on here. Exeter was discussed, I think the OP's DC was thinking of York or Exeter.

I'd not want my DGC going to Exeter after what happened in their Law Department just a few years ago. For all the claims of now being "anti racist." Why should students have to put up with this kind of crap?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Bracton_Law_Society_Scandal
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-46565444

I think the scandal at Exeter was very public at the time but it would be interesting to know if there is any update on race relations there since.

[quote GreenLeafs]@Jamdown123 Let’s not turn this into a “I’m a better parent than you” debate because you’re on a road to nowhere with that. We are all trying to do what’s best for our children and choice of university is not solely up to parents either. My role is to discuss and encourage my dc with the best university options on offer and then step back. If those choices lead to another dc being encouraged to do the same then so be it.[/quote]
Excuse me!

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about me and mine. I never used 'you' once, I used 'we' many times.

I won't contribute to your thread any longer. Good luck

@GreenLeafs

I think the scandal at Exeter was very public at the time but it would be interesting to know if there is any update on race relations there since.

It takes years - decades - for any changes to have an impact. I started noticing some abhorrent racist behaviour ( this time not targeted at black students) where I did my undergrad. It was stamped down on at the time by the staff on the ground, but the university didn't take it seriously until it had deterred a load of students which took 2 decades.

One thing you haven't taken into account is that universities are divided into different academic departments. Even in universities that attract a diverse range of ethnicities some departments e.g. engineering, business are more use to having black students on their courses especially due to the number of overseas students they attract than others e.g. history of art, english. (Incidentally I have a nephew who went to York who didn't report issues but that was probably due to his subject choice.)

Then you have issues in halls. If you don't choose your halls wisely you can end up isolated. Horrible thing to say but if you are black regardless where you come from, or simply not white if you are from the UK choosing the most expensive halls is likely to leave you feeling isolated. As you end up with living with a load of rich white kids with poor behaviour and no manners.

@RedMarauder , I agree with most of your post, apart from the bit about the most expensive halls. I think they tend to attract a lot of international students, as those halls are perceived to be in safer, nicer areas (who may or may not be racist). Also rich white kids are not universally spoilt. You'll get a range -some with great 'home training,' lots in between to the most extremely poor behaviour and attitude.

@Jamdown123 I said amongst other things, I have advised my dc to apply to the best uni they can get into for their subject. Hopefully, others will see them and feel encouraged to apply. to which you replied I sacrificed my happiness, I on't do that with my children's. I went to what is apparently the best university in the country (yawn). It was a very sad three years for me, I won't encourage my children to go there so that others see them and feel encouraged. Forget that. I literally got a headache every time I walked into the place. An actual headache.

You don’t have to say the word ‘you’ to make it pretty obvious you were replying to me, besides there isn’t anyone else talking from my viewpoint and this isn’t an echo Chamber!
It’s entirely your choice wether you participate in the thread or not.

I agree @RedMarauder. Absolutely spot on.

I want my DGC to enjoy their time at University, to feel included, to enjoy their time there - not to think they still have to be "breaking ground" almost half a century after their grandmother found herself doing the same. Why on earth should they have do crap like that in 2021?

The likes of Exeter continue to have serious problems, with the neo nazis facebook debacle in 2020 for example. As "Red" says, that dynamic doesn't change in just a few years.

Paper policies and worthy words don't impress me.

(Also have a family member who went to York and really enjoyed it.)

Good luck OP.

@GreenLeafs , my Dnieces, Dnephews and godchildren have applied to university very recently and we'll be doing the same soon. Most considered a variety of criteria before selecting their courses. The Black and non Black DC of colour thought about the diversity of a given institution and the local area. The world has changed for them and they are not prepared to put up with 'casual' or overt racism. Also, they worry, or their parents worry about marking and the attitude of staff members to their DC. The marking down of Black students' work is a problem, if the entry to a given graduate training scheme is a 2:1 or 1st.
The white godchildren were concerned about the nightlife, some wanted party cities, others wanted to avoid that with a barge pole. So places like St Andrews suited them.
After considering diversity and or nightlight, all DC considered the courses and then the institution.
One of my godchildren refused to apply to Oxbridge because their chosen course was better in their view else where.
A Greek child at one of DC's school turned down their Oxford offer for King's College, London because they considered Oxford to be 'rough.' As parents we had a good laugh about that. I think deep down she just wanted to live at home and commute into King's.
I have taken diversity into account when making a long list of universities for DC, but my DC is aiming for a very niche course where they are likely to be in the minority where ever they go to.

@PineappleCakes
I've spent a fair bit of time around Bath and the Universities. Always felt comfortable there.
I hope that your DC experiences are as positive as mine.