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Inheritance when no written will

53 replies

gallop · 27/06/2023 09:33

my mother in law passed away a few months ago. she did not leave a will but had jewellery (diamonds etc) worth at least £300k. She meant to leave it for her 2 daughters but the last two years or so of her life she was increasingly annoyed with them as she felt they were not giving her the care she expected. So she told DH in private (verbally) that she wants all her jewellery to be given to charity after she's gone. She didn't want her daughters to know while she was alive as she didn't want them to treat her worse for it. Anyway now she is gone and the daughters want to share the £300k among themselves. DH wants to give it in charity but there is no written will. Personally, I think the daughters should have it as they are not all that well off. But DH insists his mom's wish has to be met but it was a wish the mom told him in private. The siblings have developed great bitterness towards each other now. Any thoughts as to how this issue can be resolved?

OP posts:
LaBefana · 27/06/2023 10:46

Ifailed · 27/06/2023 10:38

Be warned that intestacy can take a long time if in England/Wales. Notices have to be placed inviting any other children etc. that your MIL may have had to come forward in local and national press before anything can happen for a start.
If the Estate really is worth £300k (anyone had the jewellery valued?) it would be sensible to appoint a solicitor who specialises in family law.

Yes. Best to manage expectations. My mother died intestate in March 2022 and probate was cleared in January 2023, but the distribution did not happen until May 2023.

JenniferBarkley · 27/06/2023 10:47

Legal issues aside, I think daughters should inherit their mothers' jewellery, unless there's something serious going on.

The last few years can be difficult for everyone, for lots of reasons. If your MIL and her daughters had a normal healthy relationship before that then I think they should have it.

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 10:48

@JenniferBarkley

Legal issues aside

How do you do that, exactly?

JenniferBarkley · 27/06/2023 10:49

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 10:48

@JenniferBarkley

Legal issues aside

How do you do that, exactly?

I'm just shooting the breeze. It's in Bereavement, not Legal.

shiningstar2 · 27/06/2023 10:57

I don't think it would be right for your DH to act on a private conversation between him and his mother if there are no witnesses to it or if the only witness is his wife. Many times people say things off the cuff when annoyed when they have no intention of following through with it. Your mil may have meant what she said but without a will this is entirely unprovable. Legally, without a will assets would be split between the siblings so your DH would be entitled to a third of the jewellery, though often such items are left to daughters. Your DH could ask for his third of the jewellery and then, if he thinks it right, he could sell his third and give the money to charity. In the event of no will I think that is the fairest solution if he feels strongly that his mother wished these assets to benefit a charity.

backinthebox · 27/06/2023 11:00

The law is extremely specific wrt intestacy. You can’t just put ‘legal matters aside.’ My dad died intestate in 2020, the process of intestacy is still not complete because one of my siblings refuses to cooperate with my dad’s estranged wife. My dad spent many hours dictating what he wanted to happen with his estate after he died, even getting as far as writing it all down with a solicitor and making a verbal recording of it. Because none of it was legally witnessed not a shred of what he wanted mattered, because his estranged wife made a move on his estate citing intestacy and administered it how she saw fit (he wanted to wait till he knew he was dying till he signed his will, because he felt he would be signing his acceptance of death. Unfortunately, despite living long beyond his predicted life expectancy for the disease he had, he never accepted he was actually going to die and when he did, it was quickly and he did not expect it.) Everything he wanted was not done. The thing I took away from the whole sorry episode was that if you want anything particular doing with your estate after you die, you need to get it written down, signed, and filed correctly. Otherwise intestacy is the only way.

caringcarer · 27/06/2023 11:01

All jewelry should be professionally valued, then if 3 DC they should get equal shares or all jewelry sold and money split 3 ways. If your DH wants to give his share to charity that is his choice, but he can't chose for his siblings. Your MiL had a chose to make a will but chose not to do so. Now intestacy rules apply.

viques · 27/06/2023 11:09

gallop · 27/06/2023 10:35

Thanks all- I too agree that the only rules that apply are the laws that apply when dying intestate. My MIL was quite wealthy so she bought her three children houses soon after they left university and helped them financially in many ways afterwards. But during the last years, she felt less looked after, left alone with carers with daughters coming in every other week (they lived in the neighbourhood). So DH left his job to be with mom during the last 6 months. For all this, I still feel the daughters should share the £300k. But then there's the near death-bed wish that haunts him.

But he can fulfil that wish by giving a portion of the money he will get by splitting her assets legally according to the law.

He should not feel in any way pressured to comply with something his mother might have said on the spur of the moment, or in confusion, or because she felt in some way obliged to him for the care he was giving and wanted to express it in a slightly warped way by dissing the sisters.

If she was in full possession of her mental capacity and felt so strongly about it she could have made a will, or he could have suggested she made a will. But since she didn’t and he didn’t , he has to deal with the situation as it is whatever his personal feelings.

Throwncrumbs · 27/06/2023 11:14

Dying/unwell/angry people say all sorts of things, but it doesn’t mean it’s all true. She said things to your husband that he should really not take as what she really wanted, especially as she never made a will. It’s heresay and he has no proof one way or the other. It’s quite sad when family’s argue about someone else’s property. My own sister said that our mother said she could clear out her bank account. I have no proof mum said any of that, but I do know she was heavily medicated, money was being taken while mum was in a hospice and mum never need any of the things my sister said she bought for her. Like I said there was no proof.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 27/06/2023 11:14

I don't think it would be right for your DH to act on a private conversation between him and his mother if there are no witnesses to it or if the only witness is his wife

You can also bet your bottom dollar he wouldn’t want a private conversation acted on if she’d told one of the sisters she was to get it all on a day when she was pissed off with him and the other sister…

HotWithNoRain · 27/06/2023 11:23

JenniferBarkley · 27/06/2023 10:47

Legal issues aside, I think daughters should inherit their mothers' jewellery, unless there's something serious going on.

The last few years can be difficult for everyone, for lots of reasons. If your MIL and her daughters had a normal healthy relationship before that then I think they should have it.

Not sure why this comment is getting so much grief. I think it's a fair point. It would be easy for the daughter to still get all the jewellery. You husband would just have to gift them his share. I guess this is what this poster meant.

It's common (although outdated and sexist) for families to want jewellery to stay within the female side of the family.

My daughters have been promised all my MILs jewellery. My MIL has said it's in the will too. My daughters will sell the jewellery and will split the money equally with their brothers! There are no other grandchildren.

yipeeyiyay · 27/06/2023 11:35

He doesn't have the authority to sell off her assets and donate. This is a pointless thread really. He has to follow intestate law and you acknowledge this is there us no discussion to be had. If he does anything else his DSs will be fully entitled to have him charged with theft and seek financial redress from him.

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 11:49

@yipeeyiyay

He doesn't have the authority to sell off her assets and donate. This is a pointless thread really. He has to follow intestate law

This is one of the few sensible and factual comments on this thread.

HotWithNoRain · 27/06/2023 12:00

Thinking about it my MIL has left everyone something in her will except for her only DIL, who she doesn't like but who has, in the past, done a lot of care for her. I actually don't like the DIL much either but there is no way we would let her know that she has been slighted in the will. Why cause upset when there is no need.

Im the golden DIL even though I've never done any care at all. 😅

keyboardkat · 27/06/2023 12:10

Let's say we are talking about England and Wales, there is no issue apart from division of assets on intestacy.

If there are three children, each of them will get 1/3rd of everything. So brother will get 1/3rd of the diamonds and HE can donate them to charity or whatever.

Otherwise the siblings can do a Deed of Variation on intestacy and the girls can get the diamonds, or whatever variation is agreed.

Brother on his own has no power to do anything based on a verbal wish.

WeWereInParis · 27/06/2023 12:18

Grossly unfair of her to not make a will. How horrible to leave her son to maybe feel like he hasn't fulfilled her wishes and potentially cause arguments between her children.

LightDrizzle · 27/06/2023 13:14

I totally agree with the people pointing out that due legal process must be followed.

I’d also like to add my own and others’s anecdotal evidence on the issue of MIL’s expressed wishes in the last few years. Perhaps her daughters could or should have done more, but it is very common for unwell, unhappy, very elderly people to take things out a bit on those closest to them. My mum and so many others of friends I’ve confided in, would mournfully tell people asking in the village or friends that she didn’t know how I was as she never heard from me etc. Luckily I was reassured that they saw my car regularly parked in her driveway and one shared her experience of visiting her own mum to be told she didn’t see anyone from one week to the next only to share notes with her brother who was also regularly visiting… Similarly my daughter and I would call 5 times for every time she answered because she slept a lot and was increasingly deaf and couldn’t hear the phone over Radio 4 at top volume. When we did get her at least half the call would be her expressing astonishment at us having called, telling us she never expected it as we were busy etc. She remembered her mum getting offended at not being called… - and we’d be on the end of the phone thinking but I called you, - it’s always me calling you, why do we have to go through this every time …🫣😂

I was very fortunate and in my mum’s very last days she sort of acknowledged how awkward she’d been, astonishing really, and said something about being afraid she’d rather “spoilt things” 😢- of course I reassured her otherwise and talked about the lovely times we’d had. I’m sure my mum would have been horrified if someone had decided her entire estate should go to the RNLI or somewhere on the basis of moans made to a friend or relative, I wouldn’t put it past her to say something like that at her most miserable.

Not my mum, but I have also heard of people promising the same things to different people in the final years, perhaps in the sad belief that they need to “reward” them to keep their interest, or out of forgetfulness which leads to amusement after their death when every female relative plus the beloved cleaner think they are getting her diamond and emerald ring.

Basically I think you should proceed on a presumption of goodwill and the law, the law taking precedence. Maybe your DH’s sisters should have done more, maybe circumstances made it difficult for them, but I’d assume that your MIL at her best and well would not have wanted to punish them via her estate, and the fact that she didn’t take any action to make it happen would bolster that view. Your DH will inherit a third of the value of the estate and he can do what he wishes with that third, it is none of his business what his sisters do with their portion he sounds a bit Old Testament to me.

gallop · 27/06/2023 13:31

JenniferBarkley · 27/06/2023 10:47

Legal issues aside, I think daughters should inherit their mothers' jewellery, unless there's something serious going on.

The last few years can be difficult for everyone, for lots of reasons. If your MIL and her daughters had a normal healthy relationship before that then I think they should have it.

exactly my thoughts why bother going through the legal process if you can sort out the jewellery over a conversation as you clear out mom's cupboards and yes, the jewellery is in a secret drawer of her bedroom cupboard, along with loose cash of about £50k- most of it in old £50 notes no longer in circulation. Give them all to the sisters, I say. and avoid going to lawyers. They need the money and will be glad to have it.

OP posts:
gallop · 27/06/2023 13:34

LightDrizzle · 27/06/2023 13:14

I totally agree with the people pointing out that due legal process must be followed.

I’d also like to add my own and others’s anecdotal evidence on the issue of MIL’s expressed wishes in the last few years. Perhaps her daughters could or should have done more, but it is very common for unwell, unhappy, very elderly people to take things out a bit on those closest to them. My mum and so many others of friends I’ve confided in, would mournfully tell people asking in the village or friends that she didn’t know how I was as she never heard from me etc. Luckily I was reassured that they saw my car regularly parked in her driveway and one shared her experience of visiting her own mum to be told she didn’t see anyone from one week to the next only to share notes with her brother who was also regularly visiting… Similarly my daughter and I would call 5 times for every time she answered because she slept a lot and was increasingly deaf and couldn’t hear the phone over Radio 4 at top volume. When we did get her at least half the call would be her expressing astonishment at us having called, telling us she never expected it as we were busy etc. She remembered her mum getting offended at not being called… - and we’d be on the end of the phone thinking but I called you, - it’s always me calling you, why do we have to go through this every time …🫣😂

I was very fortunate and in my mum’s very last days she sort of acknowledged how awkward she’d been, astonishing really, and said something about being afraid she’d rather “spoilt things” 😢- of course I reassured her otherwise and talked about the lovely times we’d had. I’m sure my mum would have been horrified if someone had decided her entire estate should go to the RNLI or somewhere on the basis of moans made to a friend or relative, I wouldn’t put it past her to say something like that at her most miserable.

Not my mum, but I have also heard of people promising the same things to different people in the final years, perhaps in the sad belief that they need to “reward” them to keep their interest, or out of forgetfulness which leads to amusement after their death when every female relative plus the beloved cleaner think they are getting her diamond and emerald ring.

Basically I think you should proceed on a presumption of goodwill and the law, the law taking precedence. Maybe your DH’s sisters should have done more, maybe circumstances made it difficult for them, but I’d assume that your MIL at her best and well would not have wanted to punish them via her estate, and the fact that she didn’t take any action to make it happen would bolster that view. Your DH will inherit a third of the value of the estate and he can do what he wishes with that third, it is none of his business what his sisters do with their portion he sounds a bit Old Testament to me.

@LightDrizzle how well I can empathise. sigh.

OP posts:
FarTooHotForMe · 27/06/2023 13:38

I had a similarish situation, my parent died and on their death bed said they didn’t want their estranged for 25 DC years to inherit anything.
There was no Will so I followed the law and split the inheritance between me and my sibling.
If my parent really didn’t want this to happen I think they would have made a will participate as the estrangement was so long.

FarTooHotForMe · 27/06/2023 13:40

Particularly not participate.

BridportSpectacular · 27/06/2023 13:43

You can’t really do anything other than follow the law. Then your dh isn’t the bad guy and can’t be accused by anyone of havin* hidden any extra money etc. do it buy the book.

BishopRock · 27/06/2023 13:53

Obviously laws must be adhered to.

Does your husband feel aggrieved about the jewellery in some way because he took 6 months off work to care for his mother?

Caring's a thankless task, I say good on his sisters for not falling into the daughters must look after their mothers trap, and leaving it to professionals.

If his mother was that bothered she should have made a will.

Your husband can give his share of the estate to charity if he feels that strongly about it.

And like someone else has said, would he be so righteous if it was him that his mother had decided shouldn't get his share of whatever?

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 14:17

@gallop

The jewellery is in a secret drawer of her bedroom cupboard, along with loose cash of about £50k- most of it in old £50 notes no longer in circulation.

A good way to wind up in court. This would be breaking the law, and how do you think it would be possible to sell (fence!) £300K of jewellery and launder £50K in old notes without attracting official attention?

JenniferBarkley · 27/06/2023 14:18

gallop · 27/06/2023 13:31

exactly my thoughts why bother going through the legal process if you can sort out the jewellery over a conversation as you clear out mom's cupboards and yes, the jewellery is in a secret drawer of her bedroom cupboard, along with loose cash of about £50k- most of it in old £50 notes no longer in circulation. Give them all to the sisters, I say. and avoid going to lawyers. They need the money and will be glad to have it.

Err. I didn't mean to do it outside the law Grin Just that if it's legally possible when distributing assets, I would give the jewellery to her daughters, assuming they want it.

Very much presuming here that if she had £300K worth of jewellery, no one is walking away on the poverty line here.

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