Advice needed from survivours of profoundly dysfunctional families - what to do when a parent is terminally ill?

[Earlybird]

Mum is a classic toxic parent, and is now terminally ill. She'll probably live another month. My sisters (who have a completely different relationship with her) are visiting daily. I saw Mum two weeks ago, but have fibbed that I have the tummy bug so can't drive down this weekend.

I feel guilty/upset at not seeing her, but can't bear to visit either as almost every time I see her, I'm shaken to the core.

I need advice about how to emerge from this intact please.

No earlybird this is not what you need at all atm.
Could you find another therapist? Someone closer, not sure how it works out there, but could you get access to a list on the internet? Ring a few, and ask them if they have dealt with this situation before.
You need real support right now.
I think the ad's will help, but they may take a while to start taking affect..

Earlybird, Sorry haven't posted before as really have had no advice to add.

I hope you are ok, just look after yourself.

EF xx

Earlybird

Do you want to borrow my copy of 'Divorce a Parent' to give you a bit of moral support. It does have a bit on dying and illness and I think it will help validate all you are feeling. I did use it as my bible when I was divorcing my mother...it is very empathetically written...Bevely Engel divorced her own mother and dealt with her death. You could also try emailing her, she comes across as very warm and caring...even in email.

Email ally90 at live dot co dot uk

Hope your doing okay...

ally xxx

Hi to all - First, want to say a huge thank you each and every one for the thoughtful posts. It helps immensely to be listened to by those who understand/relate. Your wise comments and advice help me calm down, and think this through without blind pit-of-the-stomach panic.

Everything seems to be stabilised with Mum. She's clearly not going to get better, but she's stronger than 3 weeks ago. She has good and bad days, and is increasingly medicated for pain.

I do think I should go say 'goodbye' but the timing is something I need to think about. Temporarily at least, the urgency seems to be less as she is not actively in 'crisis' mode. I know that increases the chances of 'quality time' (urgh, hate that phrase), but it also is the time when the gulf between us and the superficiality of our exchanges is most glaring.

Thankfully, she doesn't reminisce much. But, she seems mind-bogglingly oblivious to how dreadful things used to be....and it is that oblivion that undermines me/my memory of things. She doesn't acknowledge, she doesn't remember - is my memory flawed, have I exaggerated, was it really that bad?? Perhaps it is denial on her part, or maybe some alcohol related permanent memory loss (or even brain damage). But it all adds up to a confusing/upsetting scenario.

I've had some surreal conversations with people who know she is terminally ill. They assume it's a 'normal' family situation, and out of concern they ask 'are you driving down every weekend?' or 'are you speaking most days?' Of course, they have no idea of the reality. I can't answer honestly without an accompanying explanation, so I usually just give a non-committal reply. It reminds me how crap my family is, and robs me of the chance to be listened to/comforted, because even now as an adult I still must censor/heavily edit most conversations I have about my Mum. I still keep up the pretense, and let most people think ours was a 'normal' and 'happy' family that is now faced with a 'devastating' loss. If they only knew....

No time to type, your fourth paragraph. Why I had to break contact, could not cope with the denial, it was hurtful and made me furiously angry. The reaction of her to speak about la la family land is NORMAL in a toxic parent. Try not to doubt YOUR reality of what happened.

yes, the denial....I'm sure she (and all abusers) had/has some justification/explanation/excuse for what happened that lets her off the hook. Otherwise, how could she look in the mirror each morning? How could she not be eaten up with guilt? Maybe that is part of the reason she's turned into a chronic over-drinker in the last third of her life.

Objectively, I know she was in a dreadful situation with no support that would have tested anyone sorely. Her outbursts are understandable on some level, but she went much too far on countless occasions.

The fact that my sisters had/have a very different experience of her as a parent confuses me further. She somehow was more loving with them, and they wanted to be with her - still do, in fact. Now that I have a choice (obviously didn't when I was living at home), I can barely bring myself to be in the same room - and panic at the thought of being alone with her....even though now she's just a dying old lady.

Does anyone else find that they have only vague memories of huge chunks of their childhood? My sisters will talk about things, and the vivid detail startles me. It's as if I wasn't there, or perhaps was asleep.

ally90 - thanks for your very kind offer of loaning the book. Will contact you off board to follow up.

Any parent who says 'we treated you the same' is not telling the truth. We all have different relationships with everyone, mothers, fathers, sisters, cousins, brothers...how can you treat everyone exactly the same? You cannot. So...the point is Your sisters DID have a different experience to you. Factors that would change things would be, what was your mothers relationship with your father like when you were born, they were born. Did she have PND when you were born? Does she have a personality disorder that made her single you out (to be the scapegoat) to take out her bad feelings on? It is NORMAL that your siblings remember different things/happy times. It makes your experience/reality no less valid than their experience of their childhood with the same mother.

Do you worry what your sisters would think if you did not turn up? Because you can write them a letter and explain briefly 'I cannot be around mum right now because of my experiences from her being a mother too me are too painful. I understand if you upset about this, but I need to put myself first.' or something like. You could write a note to your mother rather than going to see her face to face. You don't have to open yourself up to more pain by talking about things that family will only gang up and argue with you about. You are worth more than that.

And I have heard other people on the stately homes thread discuss missing memories. Usually down to traumatic times

Earlybird, I only saw my mum once in the month before she died (and that was her coming to visit dd). She ied about an hour after the end of my birthday 2 years ago.
I've tried to feel bad but I don't. I accept we weren't close, I wasn't the daughter she expected to have. She was very religious (in a narrow minded sanctimonious way), I'm not. She felt disappointed in me because of that. From the age of 14 I was told I was killing my mother. She died when I was 41 of cancer - not my fault. I don't really miss her - we were never good friends. I mourn the relationship we never had, that's all.

I haven't read other comments, so please excuse me if I am repeating. My dh had a truly awful childhood with alcoholic parents and a father who regularly beat him, his siblings and his mother. About 15 years ago (before I met dh) his father was diagnosed with throat cancer and given a few months to live. Dh visited him once briefly in hospital and didn't go to his funeral. I can safely say that even now dh has absolutely no regrets either conscious or subconcious about not having spent more time with his father on his deathbed. In fact, dh was the only one of the 4 siblings who left town and moved down to London and separated from the family. His other brothers maintained a relationship with the father and visited him in hospital and are all still angry and conflicted about their relationship with the father.

Earlybird- Missing memories are definately normal. When I confronted my mum she stated 'It never happened' and then continually attacked my ability to have a memory of 'any' past events. I.e implying I might be losing it.
I think I actually began to lose memories because of this.?? If that makes sense.

You have probably 'had' to block a lot of your childhood out for your own survival.
Perfectly normal, but you still have a sense of the emotions evoked by this woman and you physically react to her. I doubt very much this would be the case if you 'had' had a normal loving childhood.

I think this woman has the capacity to make you very ill if you continue to see her and the sense I get from your posts is deep down you would rather not. But you feel some sense of obligation
Give yourself permission to put yourself first earlybird. She is still the same woman sick/dying or not.

Hi Earlybird

Hope your doing okay

Not got an email yet...not hassling, just checking or you may be sat waiting for book to arrive!

Let us know how you are...

allyxx

Earlybird?

Sorry to have dropped out of sight, but it has been a dreadful week.

Had a message that one of my 'big loves' - a man I spent 6 years of my life with, died last week. His brother found him dead inside his flat. He was 52, and they have no idea what happened.

I spoke to one of my sisters two days ago. She said Mum was not doing well at all, but hospice advised 'the dying process had not yet begun'. I made arrangements to visit this coming weekend.

My sister called today to say that Mum died last night. I can't believe she's gone. My body feels heavy - like lead. I can't make sense of any of it.

earlybird- is there anyone you can talk to right now, to help you try and process all this?

Earlybird, traditionally I would say 'I am so sorry for your loss' and I am. I am sorry that you were not given the time to make a decision as to what you wanted to do. Perhaps this way is better as the decision was taken out of your hands?

I am aslo sorry that I didn't find this tread earlier, although I have not more words of wisdom than have already been posted.

I have avoided the Stately Homes thread out of fear for my own happiness and sanity if I glance into the black pit of my childhood.

When my toxic alcoholic mother died of cirrohsis of the liver and alcoholic poisoning alone, (we think sh'd been there for 24-28 hours) when I was 28 and DD was 18 months.

The only emotion I genuinely felt was anger. I didn't ever feel guilt that I had not done enough or said goodbye because you cannot make a mentally ill abusive person accept what is unacceptable to them - that they have behaved badly and often continue to do so.

Have you tried AlAnon? I found that talking about what had occured, or listening to other people with similar experiences was helpful.

Good luck with getting the support you need at this very difficult time.

Oh Earlybird, I'm so sorry.

Please keep posting on the Stately homes thread, as well as here. I'm trying to think of anything I can say or do to help but I think just waiting for your reply and letting you know I'm thinking of you is best for now.

I hope you have someone with you right now, and if you don't (((((((hugs))))))) your not alone in the virtual world...just post anytime.

Let us know more of your big love as well as your mother.

allyx

Nortynamechanger

Your welcome to come on the thread anytime, but I understand that you don't want to re experience your childhood again.

Earlybird, my father died yesterday of a heart attack. I'm having a very tough time dealing with it.

On one hand, I feel relieved, he was a wicked man who drank and scared everyone, on the other, I feel guilty. I haven't spoken to him for many years and now I'll never be able to again. I knw I have nothing to feel guilty about, but I'm still shaken. This was completely unexpected.

Is there a way you could communicate without seeing her face to face? Coud you send flowers with a note or something?

Earlybird and Sabaiddi-please accept my deepest sympathies for you on the passing of your family members. In the best of circumstances, it is difficult, but with the crap crap crap history I can only imagine it to be amplified grotesquely. I hope you will be able to endure.

I hope that the grief monster will be kind to you and that you will know peace in your heart very soon.

Earlybird, your dilemma (that was) brought to my mind kind of a foundational perspective of the overall subject-we as adults dealing with the child of us that is still in us (not well stated).
I have taken some time to think about this the past few weeks, and within my new context of self-reflection journey that is only a few months old-my thoughts are not quite congealed. The ideas in the following paragraphs may give a spark for you (or others) to follow up on-flesh out more.
Btw, my mom passed 1980 (I was 18), and dad in 1998.

As physically adult, the passing of the parent while we are still in/having been kept in an emotional child role-is like the edge of a cliff because we are emotionally child and the event marks a final reality to be adult, but on emotional level we don't know how (even though we may be functionally independent as an adult).

Facing the mortality of a parent would scare a child to no end- the floor falling away from under you.

When my father died and my sisters and bil were at the hospital (and remember I was not loved and didn't/don't know how to feel) I just blurted out "Well, this is separation anxiety." (I was the only one with dc and they were 4 & 5 yrs old.) It seemed a cold observation but we were all self-sufficient adults and it made sense and we were all able to relax a bit and accept the reality more smoothly. (We all 'got along' pretty well at that time.)

The child in us as adults retains the traditions(?), the ill/toxic notions that were brainwashed into us a children-and as children we had no choice but to go along-no voice to object (effectively). So as a parent expires-our leader is gone and we are scared and thus act on reflexes as trained-not imagining there could be any possibility of an alternative.

BUT

We are adults, not children...('not in Kansas anymore'). As adults we have intelligence to manage circumstances-even these difficult ones. Rationally and with reason. As adults we are subjected to our culture's expectations of traditions for wake/funeral/burial/etc., but I think we can respond within our own frame of reference. It is reasonable to me that the negative childhood experience will influence the response to the death (or impending death) of the one who caused all that pain-the life engulfing pain, the pain that knows no boundaries (or end) physical, intellectual, spiritual. OF COURSE IT WOULD. It would if the mean one was a stranger who caused the pain--(quoted on the stately homes thread-I forget by whom-sorry): "Blood ties does not give rights they wouldn't otherwise have." Thus it shouldn't be a given or taken for granted that feelings of sincere love, respect, gratitude, etc., or grief, would automatically be owed to the dying/deceased.

But the brainwashing training to respect our elders/parents, to always attend the funeral no matter what, the bedside death watch, etc- pulls us back into a line that we wouldn't otherwise have chosen-like a parent controlling a child. Except it is society/culture controlling us now, but the effect feels the same-we have been manipulated out of what we would've chosen otherwise-thus still kept in child mode-thus still feeling like being controlled by someone who is dead-from beyond the grave-the 'legacy'.

As an adult-have the brain power and the backbone to decide for yourself. (Like SofiaAmes's post Sat 26 Jan 08 05:53:25 about her DH.) We have responsibility to ourselves and our choices should not let others (other perspectives) layer guilt on us OR us produce guilt within ourselves because of bad childhood training. Break out of the childhood training-our parents were toxic and that childhood training was wrong/flawed/disgustingly incompetent. So let it go. Like a used up snake skin-shed it.

Follow a new path of your own creation. Right or wrong-there is a better chance the new way will be right than blindly sticking with the infinitely verified wrong way. I suppose there is risk of the new way being wrong, so what then? So there is a learning curve. We know we don't have to torture ourselves with a mistake for decades. We can if we want to, but we don't want to, so don't. That is up to you, not up to the one in the grave. The 'legacy' from the one in the grave is solely up to the survivor to recognize ('honor' is not quite the right word for this context) and continue. As an independent adult it is valid to say no to it. If an excuse is needed, "Hey, times have changed."

As adults without childhood nurturing from our parent-still waiting for it, hoping for it, praying for it, begging for it..
Facing the final reality that the nurturing will never take place upon the death of the parent would be, nay- is, a devastating blow. Now there is no hope. As a child, we could always hope, and hope for decades. The child urges from the bad childhood training to hope-like a tease-maybe you will be loved later or acknowledged later or validated or apologized to later. With our adult intelligence we see that with the parent's death, there will be no later and the insult slams even harder that we held out hope for so damn long: more anger.

Then others shame on us for thinking of ourselves instead of the dying one. ! The dying one didn't think of us when we were needy infants/children! Sorry, getting angry myself here and don't mean to offend anyone but: "What goes around, comes around". Why the double standard? Don't cave in to the double standard, make up your own mind, in your own heart and soul. There is no attention due or owed to the toxic ones. One feels duty bound to give attention only because of the child training, the training we know was not valid.

The child training/culture training says 'we should'... To gratify within ourselves the sense of personal responsibility of doing what we should do because we decide to (and not from someone else mandating it) then it may be reasonable to offer attention. But that is on your terms, not someone else's terms.

---- I think people can grieve in their own time and own place and at their own pace for the passing of a loved (or not loved) one. Missing a funeral doesn't mean grieving isn't taking place-it just isn't taking place with the herd. Everyone grieve at once, and together publicly, and when that event is over, then what?Grief over? It's done?... No, we know better. I believe personal and/or private memorials are valid. Delayed memorials are valid. Repeated memorials are valid. Do what is best for you.

I am sorry this thinking is scattered all over the place. Maybe someone else can pick at it, understand what I'm trying to communicate and state it better.
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