Are children aged 4 often mean/thoughtless/competitive?

[Earlybird]

DD is an only child (4.5), and I'm a single mum (father not in the picture at all). Like most parents, I've been trying to teach dd some social skills such as being kind, considerate, polite, etc. As an only child, I also need to teach her how to share, how to wait her turn, how to stand her ground, how not to be pushed around, and how to respond when other children are mean. I think these lessons are perhaps things other children largely pick up at home from siblings.

I came back from dd's nursery this morning feeling quite unsettled about the behaviour of some of the other children. Is it typical for children of 4 to be quite competitive? There is often lots of "I'm going to xx's house to play, and you're not invited" or many/everchanging scenes of "you're not my friend". There is also a great deal of bragging "I'm going to xx on holiday, and you're not" or "I got a new xx this weekend, and you don't have one do you"?

It breaks my heart to see other children being mean to dd as she is a kind and gentle child. Let me hasten to add, they are not singling her out, they're just functioning at a 4 year old level as far as I can tell. For instance, this morning one little girl was being very grabby and refusing to share the building blocks. She had more than anyone else, but still was grabbing additional blocks and pushing the other children away. Also, for some reason, several of the Dads (who we know well and socialise with) dropped their children at school this morning. One of the other little girls chanted a few times "DD doesn't have a daddy".

Maybe I'm just feeling extra sensitive this morning, or maybe I'm extra protective as we've just had a lovely weekend. I know it's life and she'll have to learn how to handle those sorts of situations, but I just wanted to cuddle and protect my dear little girl from those unnecessary and unkind situations. How can I help her? What do the rest of you do? Are you experiencing this too?

"I like the fact that she's kind/gentle and don't want her to be able to give as good as she gets, but also don't want her to be vulnerable to the mean comments."

I totally respect that Earlybird and your dd sounds lovely, but I personally feel that if they don't give as good as they get they will continue to "get it". It's a dog eat dog world, sadly....

Would you disagree?

(hoping I haven't been provocative or tactless)

Children of 4 definitely don't realise they've gone too far until they're told. Even when they're told, they don't really get it tbh.

hmc - not provocative or tactless. Maybe you're more realistic than me, and I need to acknowledge that the world is a competitive place.....even for 4 year olds!

Think maybe both dd and I both need to practice our "nipping it in the bud" behaviour!

I think a lot of this 'mine is bigger/better than yours' is learnt behaviour and copied from other children. I think we shouldn't underestimate what children learn from their peer group. I also think that 3 and 4 year old children quite often don't understand the consequences of what they say, let's not be too hard on them - of course is it our job as parents to help them understand that what they say/do can hurt people. I usually tell my dd that if she says such things to other children that it is unkind and will upset them and she don't deserve to have friends if she speaks to them like that. In fact she only ever says this sort of stuff to her supposedly best friend - may be there is something in that.

I do think it is important to have some some (not nasty of course) competitiveness amoungest this age group, it is how children become more self-aware and aware of others and learn to stand up for themselves.

In my experience there is difference between 4yo boys and 4yo girls, girls are much more emotionaly mature and boys more simple when it comes to friendships/relationships (I guess it just gets more and more as we get older!). I think saying a four year old is manipulative is a bit extreme. Sometime you have to also accept the difference in personalties and that your own child although not the same can be as bad, which is something as parents we can find difficult to do.

Message withdrawn

Early I have just come back to this. I think I'd have a word actually with the nursery, say you've noticed some of the children saying quite hurtful things to each other and you wondered what their approach is. They might have some group time sessions on it - discussing how important it is to take account of other pople and their feelings, how it's not nice to be hurtful, read some stories etc.

On another issue, I'm surprised your nursery leaves the children unsupervised, especially when the children are arriving/ lots of people coming and going etc. Is that allowed?

meggymoo - thanks for your thoughts. Interesting that your ds gets bashed around being the smallest. DD tends to be drawn to the smallest/youngest as perhaps they're not so volatile and she can feel dominant due to superior size? Also thinks she likes taking care of others, which she's better able to do with smaller/younger children.

We do invite others over to play quite often. But, there is a small "clique" (that mumsnet taboo word! ) who do regular weekly playdates and have even been on holiday together. They're the kids who engage most in the "you're not my friend" comments, and also come out with "xx is my best friend". Because this group can be quite fickle, we spend some time with them socially, but also seek out other friends too - both from school and outside.

MM - must say that I am most impressed that you have enough recollections of a young age to recall feeling jealous!

puddle - good suggestion about speaking to the school about the importance of being kind to others. I think the school/teachers would be well served to address how to interact in a kind way - especially as many of the children are learning for the first time how to be part of a group.

As far as leaving children unsupervised: DD's classroom is visible to the headmistress as she stands at the front door greeting students/parents. The classroom also adjoins another room where there are 2 teachers who can/do intervene if anything too loud/unpleasant happens in the 15 minutes before the headmistress comes in. But, obviously sly remarks and teasing are not dealt with as there is no one around to hear them - unless it escalates into something really ugly!

DD is 4.5 and sadly has started coming out with similar phrases and telling me that "X says I can't go to her party". Her latest insult when I am out of favour is "You're not a Barbie Girl, so there". I just reply, "No dear, I guess I'm not" and try to change the subject!

Her nursery is fabulous, but there are some things she has picked up which we could do without... I hope there are not other parents sitting moaning about what DD has said/done to their child.

have read these messages with interest as I have become concerned about some kids at ds's nursery. A month ago he came home very upset and told me no-one would sit next to him. He was pretty bothered about it. I didn't handle him very well, I seem to remember telling him off for spilling his drink and he cried loads and took himself off to bed. I was going to ask about it at the nursery (just along the lines of 'was he okay yesterday, he seemed bothered that the other children wouldn't sit next to him) but I forgot.

Then today I noticed it happening. When he went in and sat down the same kids were making a big deal out of not sitting next to him and laughing at the child who was - as if my son smelled bad or something. My son looked really sad. The teachers weren't saying anything.

I've started to wonder about other incidents that I thought little of at the time and I've realised it always involves the same children. They are older than him, and louder and who he obviously looks up to as they don't play with him much but he talks about them loads.

and he's started saying 'go away, I don't like you' to me quite a bit in the last few weeks

Sam -that's heart rending

My DD (also 4.5) is just the same - it's definitely a girl thing ! What I have noticed is that there are a few bitchy mums at nursery - you know the types - look you up and down and then ignore you ! - and funnily enough their daughters seem to be the worst perpetrators of these crimes - of course the others all end up copying and repeating the same words !

One girl in particular will never let my DD join in her games and goes mad if my DD is going to tea with one of "HER" friends - last week she was yelling her head off at pick up time because she didn't want my DD to go to X's house as X is HER FRIEND !!! Funnily enough X's mum is the most two-faced of them all !

I don't think you can stop this happening - it's life ! However - utterly agree that you can prepare them for it and make sure that they understand the impact of their words. However - I would not teach my daughter to respond in the way someone suggested - "That's nice for you" as I really wouldn't want to hear that coming out of her mouth - I would prefer her to walk away in silence.

I think it is fairly normal behaviour, but it is not nice.

It breaks my heart to see my little boy being bullied by one particular child. He calls him names and won't let the other boys play with him. He seems to take great delight in grabbing ds favorite toy and just sitting on it so that ds cannot play with it. The one time he tackled the bully he got scratched in the face so badly that it scarred.

I was bullied myself at school and I am really sad that ds seems to already be a target for bullying and he is only 3.5. Horrible childs mum is really nice and she is upset that her kid is so horrid. I printed out some stuff on tackling bullying from the web but it didn't seem to apply to pre school.

I work so hard to give ds self esteem and confidence and I am gutted that this can be taken away from him so easily by one nasty little individual. ds has started to say "I'm not good at that" and "I'm stupid" all the time. He is the apple of my eye so it makes me feel

Scatterbrain, I was the person who suggested "that's nice for you" as a response to boasting e.g. "I've got a scooter and you haven't". Very interested as to why you "wouldn't want to hear that coming out of her mouth"??

Because I think it is rude and I wouldn't wish to hear MY DD say it. Sorry if that offends you - but I just don't like that kind of response - had a friend who said stuff like that all the time and she was very unpopular and irritating. For me - silence is best.

Sadsam and tricerotops it breaks my heart to here your stories. I really would speak to the nursery about this, going to the manager if you have to to be assured that they have some startegies in place for dealing with this sort of behaviour. Both for your children's sake and that of the 'bullies' who should not be learning that this behaviour is in any way ok at such a young age - what will they be like at 6 or 7?

Crumbs - that's told me.

Maybe when you've seen your dd1 in tears after being put down every single day by the same child and walking away doesn't work, you might risk your child sounding "unpopular and irritating" if it makes her feel a little less like a useless piece of sh*t.

As you can tell, your post has upset me more than I thought possible.

Flashingnose - I'm truly sorry - I did not want to upset you - I wish I had ignored your question now.

Flashingnose, i don't think that is rude at all. And no doubt after a while the bully will get bored and go and find someone else to upset.

i don't think it's rude either, if said (faux) pleasantly and not in a sneering, sarcastic tone - not that you advocated that, fn.

S'OK - it's a very sensitive issue with me as you can tell .

I'm very very bad with confrontation and will almost always turn the other cheek (I was shaking while I was typing my response to you, that's how wet I am ). DD1 is very like me and really isn't mean at all. The particular girl that has been giving her a hard time is quite jaw droppingly horrid a lot of the time (the type who will stroll past and whisper "crybaby" as she goes past, the type who gets every new toy going and then rubs dd1's nose in it in a very spiteful way). My inclination would always be to tell dd1 to ignore and walk away but it just wasn't working with this girl. For dd1 to have a inoffensive (I thought) response which would hopefully make this girl think twice about saying anything else, is well worth it, I feel, especially as the way our school structures the classes, they will be in the same class together until they leave prinary school .

Sorry about the typo's!

And yes, it has to be said in a "gosh I'm really pleased for you" type way to be effective, I feel.

...also wanted to add that I find it unbelieveably depressing that I'm even having to think about dd1 countering this level of sophisticated meanness at 4 years old ffs . I expected it at 7+ but not at pre-school.