3.50 buy, do you let the little things so or not?

[breeze]

MY son is going through a very willful stage, and just wondered how other mothers coped/are coping with their little one.

Yesterday he wiped his nose and walked up to be and asked me to "Put it in the bin" even though he had walked right past it to get to me. I told him he has to put it in the bin and for the next 30 minutes he was crying sitting on the floor, I ignored him for about 20 minutes then asked him what was wrong and he said again to put it in the bin and I repeated what I said before, and he started up again. What I am asking is do you let the small things go, I mean it would have been so easy to put it in the bin, but I get the feeling that I will be making a rod for my own back, or am I just making things worse.

Afterwards he is back to normal, I really hope that this is a stage he is going through, trying to test the boundaries etc etc.

I just got the feeling if I give into this now I will be giving in to more and more for a quiet life.

Britabroad ... I haven't heard of Ian and Mary Grant ... are they along the same lines as Diane Levy?
Cathncait (aka psychomum ...) The 'go to your room' thing only really worked once DS was turning 3. To start with everytime he bounced back out (after 3 seconds) I just kept putting him back there ... no force ... no arguing ... no shouting ... just firmly.
It took about 3 days for the penny to drop ... and so now he goes and sits on his cushion in his room and after a few minutes I go in and we talk ...
When I was really cross the other day he played quietly in his room (I have no problem with that) and every so often popped his head out to check out what was happening ... every time he saw my face he popped back in again (I really was angry!)
What I feel is really important here is that we had lots of kisses and cuddles and talks after so he knows that I am not cross for long and that I don't bear a grudge....

Just to add a bit of support to Ghosty here. I don't think it is too harsh to expect my 4 year old DS to tidy up after himself, or get his own juice from right next to him for that matter. And I don't think its disciplinarian either. If I just let him know that it was his own responsibility to deal with a snotty tissue then it would simply stay where it is and never go in the bin. Children have to learn to live in an environment where there are other people to consider, not just themselves and part of that is learning to do what they are told sometimes, and learning to consider other peoples feelings. And that doesn't mean ordering them about, its a case of speaking to them as you would to any other member of the family - with respect but also with a firm idea of what is or isn't acceptable (and to be blunt I think that snotty tissues on the floor aren't acceptable).

I agree with ghosty about sticking to your guns, it is important not to let any negative behaviour go unrecognised. Whilst I understand Zebra?s point about children needing security and wanting to be with their parents I also strongly believe that they also need and crave discipline and routine. Surely this means consistency and parents following through with basic rules. After all, many of the rules in our houses are obvious ones connected with safety and it is so important that children learn that under no circumstances can they get away with it - eg. - kick the cat, jump down the stairs, open the oven door.... and how are they to judge which ones are more important than the other? It is much easier to treat each rule as important so that they learn that what we tell them as their parents is all important needs to be respected.

How we teach our children these rules is the tricky bit . Each and every child is different as is each circumstance. To make it even harder, the reasons why they are doing whatever they shouldn?t, along with their mood they are in complicates everything. Let alone our own particular mood and level of patience at that moment.... Is it any wonder that we fail to be consistent now and again and don?t always get it right? I don?t believe for one minute that there is a parent out there who can honestly say that they treat their child with fairness and consistency every single time. All we can do is our best and learn from our own mistakes.

Where I do disagree slightly with Ghosty (I think, if I have read her post correctly) is that where I believe in consistency in the form of reacting and dealing every time with unwanted behaviour, I think that it is unrealistic to be consistent with the strength/method of punishment as life isn?t that simple. I could go on and on giving examples etc. but you are all parents and hopefully understand what I am trying to say. Personally, we (dh and I) have sat down and agreed on several ways of dealing with her (frequent) negative behaviour and have a tiered system to give her plenty of chances to stop what she is doing without resorting to the "ultimate" punishment - being put outside the room with the door shut. (This always gives an instant reaction - we only ever leave her outside for a matter of seconds as this is enough, followed by lots of hugs and kisses.) This tiered route of discipline means that she is control of her own discipline and receives just as much as she seems to need. We have only had to do this a handful of times (thankfully) as she now knows to stop before this happens.

Something my mum taught me (obvious and I guess I should have realised my mistake) is that it is easy to pay attention to bad behaviour but sometimes easy to forget to acknowledge good behaviour. When i was moaning to her a few months back that dd had been a little devil over the last few days she bluntly told me that it was because i was too tired to give her proper attention and that she was playing me up due to my own fault. I only gave her attention to tell her off and then carried on in my own exhausted tidying up and coping with life as a pregnant, stressed and knackered woman with a messy house. I was a bit taken aback with her comments as I had been looking for sympathy, but she was spot on. I felt bad, had a cry and then resolved to be more positive and make time to listen and play again - life improved instantly. Worth thinking about.

I have tried in regard to the suggestions about me helping him do what I ask him (ie go to the bin with him), it does actually help, why is it you don't notice to do the simple things right under you nose.

I have always done what ghosty does in regard to putting DS firstly on the stairs for naughty behaviour and then upstairs if it continues.

Thanks all for your comments.

You are absolutely right StripyMouse and as always you say it so eloquently ...
Maybe I came across as a really strict mother and I put my son in his room every time he looks like he is going to do something he shouldn't. Obviously I don't ... I too have a warning system and make the 'punishment' according to the 'crime' ... blimey ... even that sounds like I am really horrible ... I truly am not and I am often telling DH to let the little stuff go and concentrate on the big stuff as he tends to come down on DS quite heavily.
I will bore you all now with an example of what happened today...
We had a friend and her little boy to play. DS and friend's little boy had a lovely afternoon ... running around ... kicking a ball around ... playing chase ... and hide and seek. Just before tea time, in order to calm them both down as they were getting hot and sweaty I put on a video and they sat happily watching as I made dinner. My DS, knowing full well what he was doing went to stand right in front of the telly ... blocking other little boys view (let's call him T). T complained so I asked DS to move. He did but went back a few seconds later. This went on a few times and I could see that T was beginning to get annoyed. I asked DS not to do it again as T didn't like it. DS ignored me and did it again (an evil glint in his eye). I told DS not to do it ... he did it again .... I told him that if he did it again he would go to his room and think about it. So, he did it again! I just took his hand ... walked him to his room and told him that he could come out again when he was ready to watch the video nicely with T. I went back into the living room and DS followed me about 3 minutes later ... and sat down to watch the video. No more problem. No shouting ... no arguing ... no punishment ... just a realisation that antisocial behaviour was not welcome.
So ... I didn't come down too hard ... I just made it plain to DS that he was being unfair and unkind to T ...
He knew exactly what he was doing and he was testing me and young T.
So ... StripyMouse ... as you can see I do have 'tiers' too ... and I am not Herr Flick ... Honest

What I'm saying is that one should try to avoid arguing -- negotiation is a better tactic. Of course children need to be taught what is socially acceptable and what isn't; kids must learn the limits. But why should children obey us if we don't obey them? Moreover, by summarily bossing them around, we teach them that bossing people around is perfectly ok thing to do, if it gets you what you want.

If you explain why the behavior is unacceptable (eg, not considerate to stand in front of telly, etc.), give them a decent opportunity to change the behavior, and then they don't cooperate, fair enough to make it clear that the behavior can't be tolerated. But we shouldn't focus on who's in charge, but rather with best ways to persuade them that nice behavior is more productive than bad behavior. Ideally they could get rewarded so much for "good" behavior that they wouldn't feel the need to use "bad" behavior to get attention.

Maybe what I'm saying is too subtle.

There's a 6yo Bangladeshi girl down our street who comes to play and she indulges in all sorts of provocative, attention-grabbing naughty behavior. I have chucked her out the door, before for misbehaving (and I would do so, again). She's the middle child in a family of 5, and being naughty obviously gets her attention. She craves being told off because it's what she's used to. That's "normal" in her experience. So I praise her to high heavens when she's a "good" girl. Still discipline her, but I hope to teach her that being "good" can get her more pleasant attention than being "bad". She's desperate for interaction with adults, poor kid.

"Children crave & need Routine".. arrrggghhh. I won't even go there. Definitely my kids didn't receive that instruction in the "How to be a child" manual. My kids are happiest if each day is quite different from the last.

And principles: we should teach them principles of nice behavior. Not "You are my child and therefore you must mind me".

I think I've learned a lot from my dh and the way he brought up my stepdaughter. He always agrees to any reasonable request - there's no 'no' as an automatic response. So, for example, if she wanted to go on the ride outside the supermarket and he didn't have to get home instantly and he had 20p or whatever, he would say yes. She never really had tantrums or anger fits, because, I think,she felt listened to and cooperated with. He always said, "I would put myself in her place and try to do what I would think reasonable or fair." She's now nearly 12 and just fantastic, very responsible, cooperative, charming, could always take her absolutely everywhere including the Ritz for tea, she rarely needs asking twice to do things and when we ask her what she wants or Christmas, she says, "Well, there's nothing I need so please don't buy too much for me." I think there are huge advantages to keeping 'discipline' to an absolute minimum and trying to lead by example - eg saying please and thank you to each other and to ds, no shouting in the house, always looking for a compromise situation whenever possible and lots of humour to defuse difficult situations/stalemates/emotional meltdowns (eg, WHAT!! You don't want to put the snotty tissue in the bin! Well, I don't want it. YUK!' etc etc) And most of all trying to give TIME to ds , even if it means abandoning the ironing and reading a story when he wants me to. I hope this doesn't sound too righteous, and I certainly have no intention of giving in to everything. A friend of mine lets her six year old crumble crisps on the floor for fun even after she's been asked not to, and just cleans up after her, which I would find intolerable. I would just take the crisps away before that happened and the cleaning up would happen before they came back. However, I find conflict so exhausting and depressing and want my time with our kids to be fun as far as is humanly possible. None of you sound in the least bit oppressive or cruel or anything, but I also agree with Zebra's theory that we shouldn't only boss our kids or demand total obedience but cooperate with them so they cooperate with us.

I appreciate my ds is much younger, but he's gone into major willfullness mode these last couple of weeks (he's just turned 2). I agree with the picking your battles theories as that has helped my sanity. I've dug my heals in over the sleeping and that is slowly getting better (though still not perfect) as for me it's very important that we get a good night's rest!

If ds is just being uncooperative though and I have the time, I just tell him "okay, tell me when you're ready to put your shoes on/coat on/have your teeth cleaned" and go away and go on the computer. When he inevitably comes over for some attention the only response I'll give is "oh are you ready to put your shoes on/coat on/have your teeth cleaned now?" and keep ignoring then asking if he's ready until the answer is yes

It's helped a lot today in particular!

Of course, what works well one day, doesn't always work the next...

I read this post with great interest as I am sure there are battles to come with DD (only 14 months but already quite wilful). "Toddler Taming" by Dr Christopher Green has quite a lot of advice on this topic. He basically says to pick your fights carefully but be firm and use "time out" where necessary.

Definately don't give in! My husband is living proof that this does not work! When he has been looking after them for a few hours he is shattered because he gives in for an "easy life" but doesn't get one!!
If this is any help this is what I do. I pick my battles otherwise I would be battling all day. As far as possible I am the ameable helpful mummy but when I say something I mean it and I expect to be obeyed. If they have to pick something up they can scream and shout themselves stupid but even later when they have calmed down they still pick it up and get a hug, kiss etc. If they fight over a toy it is removed without discussion and regardles of the scale of the tantrum not returned to the toy box after bedtime.
We had some real humdingers but now battles of wills rarely last more than a few minutes.
What I am saying is I let the little things go unless I put my foot down, but once it's down it stays down no matter how stupid the issue is!!
Hope this helps

Oh and I agree with Aloha about agreeing to resonable requests, dd(3) asks to go to MacDonalds and I don't have to be at work for a while so why not? DS (2) wants to empty pasta all over the floor and then play with it, who is is going to harm?(he had emptied the pasta before I noticed though!)

I didn't even loose my marbles when I caught them both on the table covered from head to toe in margerine! well it was done and they'd had a lovely time and who hd left it on the table anyway? DH and I had to wrap them in towels and put them in the bath fully clothed though.

I think like everyone has been saying as long as the children have fun, know they are loved and are also given a certain amount of respect (perhaps not respect - understanding / acknowleging their point of view even if you have no intention of agreeing with them!) then disciplining, implementing social behaviour etc will work

As someone said, I too sometimes feel like I spend all my days shouting at dd (I've never hit her, though I sometimes feel the temptation).
SO I often ask myself what can I do to make life better for both of us as I don't feel like I enjoy dd at all and I know she'll grow up fast and I don't want later on to regret this time of her life.

I have chosen my battles carefully therefore: first of all comes food, which is a major battleground in our house, and if she doesn't want to eat I ignore her (but still can't get dh or any other family member to do the same) but will refuse to give her any sweets or icecreams, I offer her an alternative and that's it.

Sometimes when fighting with her I stop to watch myself and I see another 2 year old! I've noticed we're more likely to fight when I'm tired, have slept less, or nervous or whatever, but it often depends on MY mood and level of patience so I stop as soon as I realise that I am actually having a fight with a 2 year old who at the moment can't see past her nose and all she knows is what she wants. I ask myself is it worth it, and more often than not it isn't.
I always make an effort to put myself in her shoes (that doesn't mean I give in, but sometimes, it's enough to become more patient and see things with a sense of humour which helps keep me sane)
I totally agree with zebra and aloha, it's children after all, and the best way to teach them is to lead by example. DD has started throwing things in teh bin before she was even asked to, because she thought it was fun, now she does without even thinking about it.

I do try very very hard to avoid these kinds of confrontations as they make me feel so bad, I can always see how I could have avoided them, and that I should have behaved like the adult I am. I find these 2yearolds are terribly good at dragging you in a fight at their level, and it's always a few minutes before I realise what I'm doing.
But when I go through a day when we don't have any unnecessary fights (like last week when I had to cook dinner while carrying her all along, but then she hadn't seen me all day), I go to bed happier because I've enjoyed my day with my lovely dd. (cheesy but true)

Today my dd had one of those "NO" days, you know, wehn all they ever say to you is no. Very uncooperative, everything very difficult, even things like washing hands, brushing teeth. Let's not even talk about eating! I could have throttled her... I try to let go of the little things, and choose my battles, but on days like these there's no choosing, so what do you do? I just try and keep calm but it's really hard and I alwasy end up shouting at her a few times, and then feel terrible. I just spend the day looking forward to when she's finally asleep and I can have a glass of wine while having a look at mumsnet...