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Dd2's obsession is begginning to effect the whole family

54 replies

nutcracker · 28/02/2005 20:24

I have posted before about dd2's obsession with handwashing/germs. I am still waiting to see the school nurse about it.

Anyway it seems to be getting worse. The level of handwashing is about the same although i do have my suspicions that alot of the time when she says she is going to the toilet she is actually only washing her hands. The main prob at the mo is that she is getting increasingly upset when she thinks others haven't washed their hands after using the toilet, particulalry dd1.
She will go on and on about it, asking me to check dd1's hands to see if they smell of soap and if they don't then she says that they smell of germs, and won't let dd1 touch her or anything of hers.

They are sahring a bed at the mo cos of decorating, and i have just spent the last 30 minutes persduading dd2 that dd1 has washed her hands. Dd2 insists that she hasn't and they smell of germs, so she won't let her touch the quilt.

I can see that the prob may be spreading too, as i have noticed that sometimes during a meal, she will get up and wipe her hands for no particular reason.
I am still at a loss what to do about it and on the whole i try and ignore it, but i can't let her keep treating dd1 like she has the plague.

She has evenm questioned a friend of mine over wether her little girl washed her hands and she hadn't so i had to ask her nicely if she woiuld mind (i explained and she was fine about it).

So what do i do now ?? If i take her to the gp what should i be asking her to do about it ????? My gp is about as much use as a choccie fireguard.

It is heartbreaking to see her getting so hysterical over this.

OP posts:
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mckenzie · 01/03/2005 12:23

good idea to take notes and also make notes if necessary.
Might it be helpful if someone went with you as well so that if you start to falter whe(or if) they try and fob you off, your friend/mother/husband can give your shin a knock or something to remind you that you're not going to leave until you've got some positive action?

ThomCat · 01/03/2005 12:44

JimJams advice re a last time / countdown is really good. You CAN'T stop her, she can't help it, but it would be great if you could start to try and get some sort of control over it for now.

We idn't know what it was with my sister until she was in her teens, no-one had a name for it and we didn';t know, we just thought she was an anxious little girl with funny quirky little ways. it's only when my parents split up and her homework really suffered that we realised what was happening and gota name for it.

How old is she btw?

One thing that is suggested with OCD, but really not sure it will work or not with your DD, is exposure therapy. So for example encourage her to play with mud in the garden and get it all over herhands, that kind of thing, but please don't try this until you have some real help going on, this is just me tlking, i';m not suggesting you do this.
We had to sit my sister in the kitchen with the cupboard that holds the bleach etc in wide open.
It didn't actually do her any good.

nutcracker · 01/03/2005 12:46

I think i'll be better going on my own at the mo. Dp thinks it is funny and that i am making a mountian out of a mole hill so he will be no use.

Am definatly going to write it all down so i don't forget anything though.

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nutcracker · 01/03/2005 12:50

Thomcat, she is 5. I did think of trying the sort of thing you describe but not sure it could be done anyway as obvioulsy she does have to wash her hands after using the toilet which is her main fear.

Last night i refused to make dd1 wash her hands again and dd2 got really upset and said she couldn't get to sleep but i didn't want dd1 to think that any of it was her problem.

Eventually dd2 did go to sleep because i threatened to take the lamp out of the room but she looked so anxious about it all and when i crpet into the room a bit later, she was lying as far away from dd1 as she could get, with her hands spread out as far away from her body as she could get.

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pinotgrigio · 01/03/2005 13:18

DSS had this during a difficult time he had a couple of years ago (when I became pregnant with DD).

During this time he frequently washed his hands, stressed about the tiniest things being poisonous and potentially killing him, couldn't sleep alone at night, cleared his throat and tugged his hair.

These were all physical symptoms of his emotional stress, linked in with his parents divorce and the new baby.

He saw a psychologist for a while and was closely supervised at school. Over a period of about 2 years the symptoms gradually faded and are now gone.

I hope your DD gets some help and you get to the bottom of this nutcracker. I know how difficult and worrying this can be for everybody involved - it was certainly very stressful for us at the time, especially while I was pregnant. Good Luck.

gingernuts · 01/03/2005 13:51

i'm new to mumsnet, I just had to reply to your post as I've been going through exactly the same problem as you with my DD1 (9). It started years ago really with her just washing her hands more often than other people did, but recently its got much worse and she questions me constantly about what I've touched, have I washed my hands, what would happen if she touched this would she die or get a tummy ache. It has been tearing us apart to watch her scared to even turn the light or TV on for fear of germs. She now walks with her hands above her head just after she's washed her hands to keep them clean from accidentally touching anything. Only yesterday I took her to our GP, she was fairly useless said she had never heard of it in a child when in fact it can effect 1 in 200 children. Anyway she did refer us to the local child psychiatrist. It will be such a relief to talk to somebody who knows exactly what we are going through.

I really wanted to offer you my support and to tell you to go with your gut instinct and see your GP, it would be best to get some help before things get out of hand.

Jimjams · 01/03/2005 14:00

nutcracker have you tried a "last time" with her. I find ds1 needs lots and lots of warning that it'll be a last time, and I remind him as he's doing whichever ritual it is. It can work (not 100%). It might work with her insisting on her sister washing her hands (perhaps a mini explanation to her sister first- ds2 - aged 3- takes in an awful lot about his brother's condition)

nutcracker · 01/03/2005 14:06

Wow Gingernuts our situation sounds identical. Dd will also walk around with her hands stretched out if she has just washed them after going to the loo, and sje also asks what about if she forgets to wash her hands and things like that.
Sorry your gp wasn't much good, glad you got the refferal though, thats what i will be asking for too.

Pinotgrigio - It is more common than i thought it seems. Glad your Ds got help with it and is getting through it.

Jimjams - We do have a last time yes, and surprisingly for me i can stick to it, maily because i haven't got time to stand their with her washing her hands all day.
I do plan now to make sure that wherever possible Dd2 witnesses Dd1 washing her hands, although i'm not sure this will work completely.

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tigermoth · 01/03/2005 20:42

I know a little girl with this obsession. I am good friends with her mother. She took her daughter to a consultant, via a GP referral, and after lots of effort, things were much more manageable and her dd is ok now. Seeing the consultant was the turning point, so nutcracker I really hope you can get to see one too. I will ask my friend for more exact details, names of consultant,etc if you like - she lives in Brighton btw.

nutcracker · 01/03/2005 20:50

Thanks Tigermoth that would be great although i am in brum.

I did have a little chat with her about it tonight as she was telling me she was going to watch dd1 wash her hands at bedtime incase she didn't use soap.

The weird thing is, that if you talk to her about it she sounds completely rational. She said you have to wash your hands when you have been to the toilet because other wise you will get germs. Obviously this is true. I asked her if she ever goes to the bathroom just to wash herhands and she said No, i know that isn't true.

I asked her if all the kids at school remember to wash their hands after using the loo and she said that if they don't she makes them and that if they didn't she couldn't play with them because then she would get their germs.

I told her that she really didn't have to worry so much about it, and she said yes mommy but i don't want to get germs.

I am glad i am going to speak to someone about it cos i feel out of my depth now. She is doing right by washing after going the loo but i know she is taking it to the extreme and she can't see that.

Oh i asked her what she would do if ever she couldn't wash her hands after going the loo and she came up with all sorts of reasons of how she would be able to find some soap but then eventually said, she would cry because she would be dirty then and no one would want to play with her because she would have germs.

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jabberwocky · 01/03/2005 20:58

I think you definitely need an evaluation to see if she has OCD or a phobia about germs (can't think of the exact term ATM). The treatment would be slightly different depending on which it was. I know there are medications for extreme OCD although I'm sure you would want to try behavior therapy first.

Levanna · 01/03/2005 22:49

nutcracker, I can't imagine how difficult this is. I was thinking maybe there could be some way of educating her more about germs, the different types and that not all are bad, such as 'friendly bacteria' for example. I know your DD2 is only young, but maybe someone with expertise could put it into simplistic terms for you to explain to her? Fear of the unknown is the worst fear of all. Maybe if she realises that there are actually very few germs that could cause her real harm, it might help her to rationalise further. I understand that there tends to be a more psychological cause for OCD type behaviour, so don't know if this will help at all.
Good luck with GP

vess · 02/03/2005 05:37

Hi there!
Nutcracker, best of luck finding a psychologist - I hope you get a friendly and understanding one. I just thought, maybe you can try to explain how the body fights germs, that it's a natural process and that actually being germ-free can sometimes weaken tha body's defence system - something along these lines. I know that's not real help, but she might find it interesting. Also (again not a solution) - I've got this antiseptic gel for hands that is supposed to kill germs (better than washing, it says) - you just spread a little bit over your hands and it dries in seconds, and your hands feel fresh afterwards - maybe you could get something like that from a pharmacy, if you think it will make any difference?
Hope she gets better soon!

pinotgrigio · 02/03/2005 10:31

Following on from some over the other posts - when DSS had the problem he understood all rational argument but he just couldn't help feeling the urge to wash his hands because of germs.

He used to say that he just couldn't help it. If he saw a speck of rust he'd freak, although he rationally knew it couldn't harm him, something inside him told him it was dangerous.

Our doctor told us this sort of behaviour is becoming very common, especially in boys. Quite a few of DSS friends had similar traits (around the age of 10/11/12), all related to anxiety of some sort.

jabberwocky · 02/03/2005 13:21

I agree pinotgrigio. Just talking to someone with this type of behavior usually doesn't do the trick. i have had mild OCD for most of my life. It gets worse when I am upset or anxious about something. One of my main things is checking that the stove is turned off. Sometimes I will check it several times, then have to turn the car around and come back to do it again (those are the bad days). I have learned to do things like actually touch all the burners and then say out loud "The stove is off." When the urge to come back home strikes I have to repeat the phrase and will my myself to continue driving. It has slowly gotten better over the years but I don't pretend that I am cured.

nutcracker · 02/03/2005 22:03

The latest episode of it was set off by a massive tantrum, so i think in her case it is linked to how anxiuos she is, it is obviously a comfort to her.

Today she seems to have been perfectly fine and as far as i know she hasn't mentioned her hands or germs once. I know only to well though that something will trigger it off again soon.

I did think of trying to educate her about germs, but i am worried about saying the wrong thing and making her worse, so i'm gonna wait and see what the doc advises first i think.

Vess i know the handwash stuff you mean, but tbh i think she would be putting it on every five minutes. Might keep some in just incase she ever goes somewhere she can't wash her hands though.

Thanks for all the advice. Will let you know how i get on tommorow xxx

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tigermoth · 03/03/2005 06:56

nutcracker - I will have a word with my friend in the next week or two and report back.

Tiggiwinkle · 03/03/2005 08:00

Good luck at the doctors this morning Nutty.Hope it goes well.

ThomCat · 03/03/2005 09:59

Thinking of you. Hope it goes well today. TC x

lunavix · 03/03/2005 10:04

Hope it goes well nutcracker. YOu are also more that within your rights to demand a new doctor if you don't like yours.

nutcracker · 03/03/2005 14:00

Just to let know that the appointment had to be moved to this afternoon as there was some cock up or other. It isn't until 4.20 now but I am still not taking dd in, dp is having her.

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nutcracker · 03/03/2005 14:00

Thanks for the good wishes too

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nutcracker · 03/03/2005 21:42

Well not sure if it went well or not. I explained it as best i could and she smiled at me the whole time which was soooooo unnerving.

Anyway at first she said that alot of kids that age go through phases of being fixated about something and wether to do anything about it was basically up to me. Then though she asked me a few more questions and i gave her afew more istances of things that had happened and so now she has said that she is going to ring the haleth vistor tommorow and discuss it with her (what for ??) and then probably refer her to a peadiatrician (again why a pead ??, why not a psyc ??).

Not sure she quite understood what effect this was having on dd and the family, oh and after my intitail expolanation, she looked something up in a dictionary, haven't a clue what though.

Arrrgghhhh she makes me feel so nuerotic, like i am making it all up or something.

Anyway I await contact from the h.v now, and if she says that my g.p has decided not to refer her then i will be seeing another g.p

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Jimjams · 03/03/2005 22:11

not bad to be referred to a paed as they often need to be seen as well. Chase up your HV tomorrow.....

Jimjams · 03/03/2005 22:12

sorry that sounded bossy (I have half a mind on getting to bed) don't hesitate to push if you aren't given a referral