Suitable punishment for 4 year old DD - who seems oblivious!

[Lowfat]

DD (4)got hold of my nail varnish last night (see housekeeping thread) and 'decorated' her wall and carpet.

She was due to get £5 today for earning all her sickers this week, with no crosses, and DH was going to take her out for a long bike ride. She has lost both of these - she was initially upset as she want to buy her self some new pyjamas while out with her dad, but in just half an hour seems not to be bothered any more.

DH and I are trying to think what to do to show her the severity of her crime, in terms of the carpet is ruined. We've told her how cross we are but she just looks through us when we speak to her.

Cant do too much in terms of no telly on or keeping her in, as she has a little brother too who would suffer as well.

Next move is to take her favorite music away in her bedroom, but that too seems to have had little impact. Can I have some help please.

Oops - just realised she climbed and searched! That could be dangerous - maybe you need to rethink the storage.

Yes I've read the whole thread.

You still didn't answer my question.

I completly understand lowfats furstration. Dd (4) is completly oblivious to punishment, which at the moment is to sit on the step for 4 minutes. She does the same naughty things over and over and over again at times, or she will do something on purpose when i have specificaly asked her not too. She has never had a tantrum, and very, very rarely even looked upset when i have sat her on the step/taken sweets away etc. It is not that i want her to suffer, and i'm sure lowfat feels the same, but it is infuriating when, despite trying to explain your anger or dissapointment they sit there looking through you. Dd was sent to the step the other day for something that she has done many times, and each time had explained what was wrong about it. I was furious. I shouting, which i try not to do and dd's reaction? sit on the step humming and chatting to herself.
You get to a point where you want to do something to make an impression.

Sounds to me like you have a very smart cookie. She knows she?s done something wrong, she probably knew when she first thought of it and climbed up to get it, but understands there is no point in disputing the fact as she was caught red handed. I had a sister like that. It sounds like she is trying to earn stickers again and next week, if she earns that £5, she will understand the value when she buys the pj?s.

Am at the conditionality here - the whole rewards and punishments thing for something which isn't a child setting out to cause upset for family, but experimenting with something fascinating.

Me, I'd be finding cool things to do with cheapo nail varnish WITH the child - painting nails, stopping ladders in old tights, making watertight little paper cups for water pouring games, painting pictures on paper, whatever you can think of. And locking the nail varnish away in a very hidden place so that use of it is always supervised.

If there's something the parent of a four-year old wants that four-year old not to use on their own, it's really up to the parent to find a safe and secure hiding place for in between painting sessions. In the same category as sewing scissors and bleach, perhaps.

I totally agree, onward.

I would just keep praising good behaviour, ignore the bad as much as possible. Sounds like she is doing well with the sticker charts, cleaning up, finishing her food etc.

I shouted at my dd for a few things when she was 4 but to be honest if she had spilt lots of nail varnish I would think it was my fault for not supervising her!

(Sorry not blaming you, just saying how I would feel!)

can i just add that sometimes it seems like young children will willingly starve themselves. my dd1 has a problem with eating even from birth she didnt take as much milk as she should have and as a result has never grew properly

when she was older (at first was told this would change when she was weaned properly but it just got worse)the doc told me that she should have set meal and snack times (she already did) and that i shouldnt fuss just take meals away after a certain period of time i did this and she did not eat for three days not a single thing!!!

I agree with aviatrix re. no star charts for eating.

Also, I don't believe stars won should be crossed out. The behaviour which earned the star didn't disappear. If bad behaviour subsequently happens, just leave a blank space for that period of time.

Star charts are generally used to target one specific behaviour - not a whole life, which is what it must feel like to the OP's dd. Again, I feel, like aviatrix, that it would be worth trying to do without it.

IMO at 4yrs, a child should only be expected to do one or two little chores per day e.g. laying the table. But that should be just their contribution to the family running smoothly, not paid for.

£5 is too much. If she is being paid £5 at age 4, what on earth will she need to get by the time she is 8 or 12?

Sorry to sound so negative. I should go to bed, I'm getting grumpy.

wow, what an odd life, the constant pursuit of stickers...

Agree with aitchtwociao, what's wrong with just expecting good behaviour and a bit of help and not having to be rewarded for everything. If there's a specific problem, perhaps it's a good idea, but if you've got good discipline and a good relationship in the first place I don't see the point of them. They seem to be a national obsession at the moment.

i think it's a bit cruel, tbh. don't get me wrong, dd is moving towards potty training at the moment and we are making a huge fuss of her when she asks to go to the loo, but i just can't imagine how you could keep up that level of approval and delight on a long-term basis. and if you can't, then it's just a punishment chart imo.

Well sorry none of you agree with my sticker chart for remaining at the tale during a family dinner and eating the food on her plate. Also about loosing stickers for bad behaviour.

We have been working this way since she turned 4 and it has improved her behaviour greatly.

As I pointed out in the OP I did not want to punish her because I was looking forward to praising her. However I fail to see how I could have said - naughty girl for ruining a whole carpet - you know (and she does know) nail varnish doesnt come out. Then take her down stairs and hand over a £5 note! Am that no one else seems to think the same way.

Serendipity hit the nail on the head, with the fact the punishment seemed to have no initial impact.

FWIW I have 2 bottle of nail varnish, as a rule I dont wear make up or nail varnish much. And DD had only gone after it as we had been at friends during the afternoon, who's 6yr old DD has play make up - which I personally dont agree with, and it had reminded her that mummy has some.

I feel confident in my DD's ability to understand her punishment and she is a lovely caring little girl. So I am not about to change something that works for us.

but why do you want her to clear her plate, though? i thought that sort of thing was majorly frowned-upon these days. certainly i frown upon it, i think my parents' insistence that i finish my dinner every night set down patterns that have been immensely hard, nay impossible, to break.

I don't expect mine to clear their plates, but I do expect them to stay at the table until everyone's finished. And that's a given - they don't get rewarded for what I think of as "baseline" good behaviour.

They do get rewarded for above and beyond the call of duty good behaviour - like the time a rather strange friend of ours turned up for dinner with a unexpected shaven head and handle bar moustache and they said good evening nicely and didn't giggle!

yep, seeker. did you see child of our time the other week? some kids were getting into the car and their dad kissed them goodbye and said 'remember your manners'. i thought that was lovely, my folks used to say that to me when i was wee, and i'm resurrecting it for dd. remember your manners, it's so sweet....

slightly off the subject, Lowfat - why don't you wear make up etc as a rule? I am covered in the stuff to put the bins out...

I was awful as a child and occasionally got a smack from Mum, I used to look her in the eye and say "That didn't hurt" and got another one. They both hurt but after the second smack I could rarely not cry after the second. It doesn't mean that the first didn't hurt, cause I can tell ya my Mum knew how to smack - I would wind her up (not in the teasing sense, I just would go) more than being naughty so when she smacked she was really wound up. Tears don't have to follow punishment.

Please note, I don't want to go into the ins and outs of smacking, I'm not posting to get into it.

I could carry on about my experiences of punishment and reward, they're a big issue for me now and have caused certain relationships in my life to be in irrevocable disrepair. But I'm not and I'm not going to comment on the rest of the thread because it's one where it obviously isn't wanted.

poor girl

"Well sorry none of you agree with my sticker chart for remaining at the tale during a family dinner and eating the food on her plate. Also about loosing stickers for bad behaviour."

As others have said, rewarding her for eating everything on her plate is not a good idea. It teaches her to over-ride her full feeling, which can cause problems when she's older if she doesn't know when to stop.

I don't like the sticker chart idea in the first place but really can't see the logic behind removing stickers you earned. A bit like your boss at work taking part of your wage off you because he didn't like your work in the last hour of the week.

"We have been working this way since she turned 4 and it has improved her behaviour greatly."

Short term maybe. But I think you might be storing up problems for later.

"However I fail to see how I could have said - naughty girl for ruining a whole carpet - you know (and she does know) nail varnish doesnt come out. Then take her down stairs and hand over a £5 note!"

While I'm sure she does know, sometimes with young children they have to be constantly reminded until they get older and understand more.
I don't think anybody is saying that immediately after pointing out that nailvarnish on the carpet wasn't a good idea you should give her £5. The £5 was for her stickers, surely, and could have been given at a later time.

Serendipity hit the nail on the head, with the fact the punishment seemed to have no initial impact.

I think tinkerbelle's mum answered that one. You don't have to reduce a child to tears for them to understand that they had done something you didn't like.

And DD had only gone after it as we had been at friends during the afternoon, who's 6yr old DD has play make up - which I personally dont agree with, and it had reminded her that mummy has some.

Well there you are, then. Possibly all other thoughts left her head and she just made the connection with the play make-up and your nailvarnish.

I feel confident in my DD's ability to understand her punishment and she is a lovely caring little girl. So I am not about to change something that works for us.

I do think that it might be worth you having a read through
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.
I'm trying to be helpful here as you might find some ideas in the book which you might find better for you and your dd in the long-term.

juuule you said everything there that I wantd to say, I second the reading recommendation lowfat, it really will help