Should a 21mth old be able to understand the word NO ??

[nutcracker]

My Ds is nearly 21 mths and if he's doing something he shouldn't be (most of the time) and I say 'No' or 'Don't do that please ***' it just seems to go straight over his head and he carries on.

Does he really not understand or is he just ignoring me ??

nutcracker- is this your son who is being assessed? I've got a bit lost. Does he always have trouble following a point? If so I think it is very important that he is referred on by the HV (so push or go to the GP if you get nowhere). What's his pointing like (sorry I'm reading backwards in the thread and only skimming as I have to go out in 10 mins).

Start binning "no" though. Just don't use it. Cut your langauge right down- so rather than "come on darling get your shoes w're going out" say "Name shoes" Likewise- rather than "come on its tea time come and sit on your seat" say "name sit on seat". Always use his name FIRST in the sentence and then minimal language- you may find this makes a huge difference. It usually works very well right away.

Hi Jimjams, yes it is my Ds who we are on about.

Since i spoke to you about him on a previous thread I did make a point of trying to notice his pointing skills.
He can point very well, will point to things he wants, prefers to do this than try and say the word i think.
If I point to something then i would say that 9 times out of 10, he hasn't got a clue thati'm trying to show him something. He focuses on my face and then looks around the room for the object. Even if like today I hold my finger up until he looks at it and then move it to point at the object he still can't follow my finger to the object.

My Dd's are back at school next week so I am going to speak to the H.V then.

Should I make a list of my concerns do you think, or will I then look a bit obssesed ???
I'm likely to forget stuff otherwise though.

Hi nutcracker! Nice to see you around here. haven't been much on MN lately so don't know who's doing what anymore....

This is not a reply to your original question but I did want to mention a couple of things to you if I may.

As you well know children develop at different stages and have different abilities until much later on in life. So don't worry too much about specifics here. There is a book called 'What to expect in the toddler years' which most libabries have in stock. it is worth having a look at it. It gives indications of what children are expected to be able to do at different stages -i.e. at 18month, 22m etc- and although you shouldn't take it too literarly it might give you some idea of what expectations to have as regards DS's development.

Definettly make a list of all your concerns and take it along to the meeting with the HV. Don't worry if they seem like minor issues, better to get an answer than not know at all. And nobody will think you're obsessed for doing so, it is normal to have questions for professionals, that's what they're there for.

On the subject of interest in play.

It is a good idea to offer a child a variety of play things so keep doing so even if he's not interested in them. Use the most basic toy if a complex one is too much for him or he doesn't have the patience for it (i.e. very simple puzzles, very large building lego blocks, very simple and colourful board books etc). By succeeding, he will develop an interest in something new and later he will decide for himself what it is he really likes. But you are the one able to provide him with the variety of choices.

If he's so good at physical activity take him to the park lots of times (if there is a decent one nearby), let him and encourage him to climb on the equipment, use the slides etc. When a child is good at something you as a parent need to push him just a little bit further, without him realising it then he'll have the satisfaction of doing new things. Swimming or playing with water migh be interesting for him. If so, offer him various water play objects he can invent games with by himself (empty plastic bottles, boxes, sieves of different sizes, differently shaped foam objects etc, what you can find in the house. give him some paper and make him observe how it desintegrates when it gets wet in the water, or sugar granules dissolving in water, heavy and lightweight objects reacting differently in the water etc.just exploratory play)

Try something new neither of you know if he likes. Try painting and playdough. the messier, the more enjoyable for him.

As for shape boxes etc, use an alternative: pebbles posted through a plastic box with a hole cut in the lid. Etc.

So, what I'm trying to say is: offer variety and observe what he likes/is good at and encourage that type of activity. Keep giving him new challanges with activities he's good at (i.e. climbing). keep it simple, go back to simple games, toys, books etc to make sure he understands what is all about and progress from there on what he's interested in.

What about toy cars? Something else he can play with. Or find a type of toy he likes and encourage him to use it by giving him different types of the same toy (i.e. if it's cars he likes get a few of different colours, sizes, types, get a tractor, a bus etc)

Sorry about the long post. Hope it helps a bit. Hope you're well. Bye. take care.

Hi Branster, thought I hadn't seen you on for a while. Hope you and yours are o.k

Thanks for your reply. I am going to look into taking him swimming or to tumble tots or something similar soon as Dd2 starts school next week so I will have more time to spend with Ds on a one to one basis.

You are rught though about encouraging him. I do tend to just let him lead the playing and so if he shows no interest then i let him go and get what he likes and he wanders off on his own.

He doesn't really have anything that he is particularly interested in, as he just tends to wander around a will have a look at something for a few minutes and then get fed up.

I will make a list for the H.V as I know i'll forget what i want to say, especially if they try to dimiss what i'm saying as soon as i open my mouth.

Thanks again

But don't feel you should spend a lot of money on all these organised activities like tumble tots. just enjoy the time with him when dd starts school and observe him closely when there are just the two of doing very simple things so it is easier for you to spot what he likes. also don't offer him too much at once as he might become restless expecting you to offer him something new on tap. Good luck! Let us know how you get on with the HV.

Make a list of concerns. Obviously I haven't seen your ds1 so I'm only going on what you've said here and I may be interpreting what you are saying incorrectly, but from your descriptions on here I would be worried about the inability to follow a point (although pointing himself is excellent). You say he points to things he wants- does he also point just to "show" you something that interests him? If he doesn't I would mention that as well.

I'd also perhaps be worried about the lack of play. A lot of the toys you mention require co-ordination- and it may just be that his fine motor skills are slow to develop. DS2 (completely NT) wasn't very interested in jigsaws, shape sorters etc until past age 2- but that's because he was/is cack handed and they were frsutrating for him. Does he play with cars and things and if so how? Have you tried him with things like toy ironing boards, hoovers etc. What about things like toy telephones, tea sets etc? Does he like scribbling, stickers etc? DS2's play was quite repetitive when he was under 2- used to play with trains all the time if possible, I wasn't worried though as he was so keen to play- play was like a need for him. He just HAD to play. DS1 actually can't play, he may fiddle with a toy iron for 2 seconds but he has no drive to play in him at all and he cannot do it wthout direction. He may look at books, or he may look out of windows, sniff the hoover, watch the washing machine, but he won't play unaided for more than about 15 seconds. If you think this drive/need for play is missing then I would highlight that to the HV as well. It's difficult to tell from your description though so if that need is there then that would be enough for me to stop worrying about him at all really in terms of development (even with the problems following a point).

In the meantime try cutting down the language and see if that helps. I do know a number of children who have responded very well to that and then kind of come on leaps and bounds and within months the parents are wondering what they were worried about. Do talk to your HV though as obviously that's not always the case . If you can get hold of a copy of "more than words" the book about the Hanen programme (should be in libraries) then I would recommend that very strongly.

let us know how you get on with the HV. try not to worry (difficult I know!)

Nutcracker- don't pile the guilt on yourself though. If there is a developmental problem involving play then no amount of encouragment etc from you will make the blindest bit of difference. Provide him with different activities to see if you can find something that does interest him, but if he's not interested then you can't force that iyswim. If ds1 sits and plays with me/a toy for literally 2 minutes then that is counted as a real achievement. I guess that's what I mean by the drive/need/interest for play being missing in him.

If that is missing do stress that with your HV. Don't let her tell you that if you only did this that or the other he would be interested- if that interest is missing it is not missing because of anything you have done. I can put ds2 in a room empty of toys and he will find something to play with- enthusiastically. I can put ds1 in the middle of hamleys and he isn't remotely interested- he'd rather look at the lift buttons or the stairs. I think that can be something thaty a lot of people (including many professionals) completely fail to understand. DS1 is not interested in playing.

What helpful ideas Jimjams and Branster re speaking simply, not using no, and play ideas. I often steal suggestions from others' threads but don't usually acknowledge it so thought I would. My DS2 is starting to say a lot more and I am sure understands a lot but I think these ideas would help him generally so ta v much.
BTW Jimjams that line about your DS1 in Hamleys and not interested just brought a lump to my throat. I can't begin to get my head round what you have to deal with all day. Hats off to you (and sorry about your awful hols btw, agree with others on that thread re nto seeing PILs again!)

Thanks for the advice Jimjams it's really appreciated

As far as the pointing goes I can't remember if he points to stuff he's interested in. I do remember him showing me a cat and trees the other day but am not sure if he pointed or just shouted and looked in the general direction.

The play thing is concerning me a bit as now I come to think about it he doesn't really play much at all. Most of the time he will just wonder around messing with stuff, like turning the t.v on and off over and over again, and screaming at me to let him have the vacuum to play with.
If I get the mega blocks or wooden bricks out for him, he will get all excited and then walk off, like he doesn't know what he's menat to do with them (i have shown him, and he watches his sisters too).
I have been trying to start buying his birthday and xmas pressies but TBH I am completely stumped as to what to get him. Everything I look at for his age group seems far to hard for him, alot of the 12 mth toys seem more around his level.
He likes singing and loves to sit on my lap and sing nursery rhymes with me, and will try and sing them alone too.
Just thought too, he doesn't really play with anything in the garden either. Again he'll just walk round picking things up and putting them down again, and it really is like he doesn't understand that they are to play with.
He can do scribbling and quite likes it too. It took a while to get him interested though, as he prefered to eat the crayons.
He has a toy garage and train set, but he doesn't play with them either. The garage he more or less ignores, unless he is trying to climb on it, and he will sit in the middle of the train track pressing the buttons.
Oh he did push a car along the floor the other day and was making the sound of a car, i remember cos i was quite shocked to see him doing it.

What you said about Ds1 and Hamleys is interesting cos if i take Ds into a toy shop he hardley ever trys to reach for something and if I give him something then he just loks smiles and gives it back. With my Dds i'd never give them anything cos i'd never get it back.

I think you may be right about his fine motor skills as he cannot feed himself either. I give him a spoon and a fork but he will have a couple of attempts at getting stuff into his mouth but then gives up and eats with his fingers.

I am going to try the cutting down the language as that sounds like it could work with him, and i'll have a look for that book.

Thanks again Jimjams, i'll let you know how I get on.

Nutcracker, you have had great advice on the development issues so I will gostraight tothe fun bit of toys! has he got a magnadoodle type toy -so he can scribble without any danger of choking! (although,you may have to keep the shape stamps for closely supervised play)also, maybe stuff like playdough with the rollers, cutters etc that he can use abit later on.

I def agree with the language advice. It made the world of difference to ds1 and also seems to work with ds2. Saying their name first and making sure that they are paying attention before you go on to talk to them also helps with your own frustration. It used to drive me up the wall when I had to repeat everything half a dozen times before ds1 would pay attention.

The simple sentences make a big difference. I used to think that ds1 understood far more than he actually did. It was the SALT who spotted that his understanding was less advanced than everyone (including his pre-school) had realised. We switched to saying things like " go shop>" and " coat" and after a short while it felt as though we were finally starting to understand each other. We use this same method with ds2 (18 mths) and so far he seems to understand a little more than his brother did at a similar age.

I think they do understand no on the whole but you have to reinforce the message by gently removing them from the thing you don't want them to do/touch/etc.

Ct - I am definatly going to try the language things suggested but i know i'm going to have trouble getting his attention.
I can sometimes repeat his name 6 times over and he doesn't even look at me.
Ususally when he does this I have to go and turn him to face me and stand right infront of his face.

Thanks again for all the advice it's great to have such knowlegeable people around when your worried about something.

nc - Try the language thing, it will help. I would definitely go for a hearing test as he may have glue ear and that can affect hearing. My dd had glue ear and the grommets definitely helped , although the language disorder obviously isn't linked!

Just a bit of an update....

Haven't seen H.V yet as she is off sick, but since Dd2 started scxhool last week Ds has come on alot. Without Dd2 around he has started to try and speak more (can't understand him but still he makes the effort), and has been playing with toys quite alot. He has had the toy kitchen out and been putting stuff on the tray and in and out of the oven, and he has had his train set out and instead of just sitting in the middle he actually put the people in the train and drove it round the track making a train noise .

AND He finally managed to build a tower about 6 bricks high . I was soooo pleased with him I cried and i think he thought i was nuts for squeezing him so hard.

I think i will probably wait now until he is called for his 2 yr check and then mention that i did have concerns but that he seems to have suddenly come on alot.

It seems he was relying a little too much on his sister i think, and now she isn't here he has come out of himself.

Oh still working on the following a point but not soooo worried now, with just that on it's own.

Great new Nutty!

great to hear that nutcracker!

I was reading this thread because of the title which intrigued me, because my ds, 15 months old, doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word no either.
He will stop though doing whatever he's doing, he will look at me and say "NO" screaming, copying me moving the index finger as to say no, and will then happily carry on doing whatever he was doing.

I find this quite frustrating as he seems to take the mickey, but guess he's too young for that?

Also, he will say "NO" in the same way if I try to remove him from something he really enjoys, normally when I take him out of the water after he's had his bath which he loves.

So I am quite confused on whether he understands "NO" or not...