Non-smacking parenting for really challenging kids and incredibly hard situations

[prettybird]

After Catastrophe's contribution to the thread on NZ views on the proposed anti-smacking law, I though I'd start the very thread she suggested.

So, what are people'ssuggestions?

Personally, I have used a combination of being sat on the steps/sent to the hallway, star charts, pasta jar, removal of priviliges, explanation, ignoring of bad behaviour and encouragment of good.

These however, did not always work between the ages of 18 months and 2.5 years, with a non verbal toddler.

[rantinghousewife]

I think Greensleeves was pretty spot on, although I do think as all children are different what works for one may not be as effective with another. I have 2 dc, one a teenager and a pre schooler and the older one responded better to being left in a safe place just to calm down and get on with it, whilst dd responds better to the counting method. Can't be arsed with the smacking thing, too much hard work and upset (for you) and I don't remember it ever being particulary effective when my mother did it to me. TBH you sound like you've got everything pretty much under control. And even if your toddler is pretty much silent, he/she will probably understand you.

[prettybird]

Rantinghousewife - my ds is now 6 and talking 19 to the dozen. I was really doing this for CatASTROPHE, who suggested that such a thread might be more useful for those people looking for alterantives to smacking.

He was never silent - it was just that he talked in his own version of Serbo-Croation (or wahtever it was) and would then get very distressed that I didn't know what he was on about!

[rantinghousewife]

Opps, didn't read that properly, did I? Sorry.

[rantinghousewife]

As for the serbo-croat, it mutates into deep sounding muffled rumbles as they get older!! Bless.

[strongteabag]

-telling them it's Ok to be angry, just not to take it out on anyone else. I tell DS1 to roar if he is cross sometimes
-actually believing and acting like you are boss- I think this makes kids feel more secure
-'house rules' ie keep hands and feet to oneself
-with a younger child getting down to eye level and talking in a stern voice/no nonsense manner
-verbal praise for good behaviour
-leading by example!
-trying to stay calm

these are a few things that have worked for me

[catASTROPHE]

thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble of posting so far. I will sit down and read them all properly tonight - my parenting tip is not to sit on the PC all day as it makes the DCs play up as they feel ignored, and makes me frustrated when the DCs 'interupt' me

[prettybird]

There's some good stuff here - hopefully it will help more than just catASTROPHE.

[MerryMarigold]

Hi. Thanks. These are great ideas for slightly older kids - some I had planned to do, others I haven't thought of. My problem is that 18 months to 2.5 where they clearly understand 'No' but don't always choose to obey it. As in many of the examples on this thread, a bad choice should equal a bad consequence (and a good choice a good consequence). The good things are easy for this age group - lots of kisses, smiles, praise. Equally the very stern voice, eye contact and no smile for the bad choice. But this is not working on my ds. The only place he could have 'time-out' is his high chair but I don't want to associate an eating place with punishment and I'm not convinced he'd get the connection if, for example, he'd played up in the garden. Or repeatedly snatched toys at toddler group.

I know there is a large body of people that say this 'toddler' age is too small for discpline, but that's not my way of thinking (and others). I know kids this age are not being deliberately bad. However, it is an age of exploration and testing boundaries. They need to know where the boundary is ie. mummy says no she means no. Giving them boundaries is, I believe, necessary for their security and happiness. But how do you enforce that boundary when it is pushed repeatedly?

[Zog]

Reading this thread with interest, especially GS's post. Agree with a lot of it but one query:

There's a fair bit of restraining going on - what are you going to do when he's bigger/stronger?

My ds (aged 8) has never stayed in a room when I've put him there to calm down - he will follow me round, upping the ante (and I have locked myself in the loo, only to have him battering at the door). I know that the only thing that will help in these situations is for him (and me) to calm down (and he knows it too in the cold light of day) but when he's in a strop, I cannot get through to him. He's getting too big and strong now for me to put him in his room.

How would you handle this, anyone?

[Greenleeves]

It's a good question, Zog. Do any of us really know what we'll do when our children are older, or when our current strategies are outdated? I think your question would apply equally to smacking/time out/giving sweeties for being good

I'll attempt to answer it though. My hope is that as we are constantly reinforcing (ad nauseam!) the message that it is his choices that determine how pleasant his everyday life is and how others respond to him, he will be better able to control himself and understand his own actions and their consequences when he is older.

My approach isn't so much about physically restraining him as try to give him strategies (counting to ten, singing his "calming down" song etc) for directing his own feelings. Obviously when he's 10 he probably won't want to do "angry hands" or sing a silly ditty about calming down either, but I don't think that means it's short-termist of me to use them now, to teach him that he can control himself. I wouldn't expect a 4yo to be able to control himself to the same degree as an 8yo, for example. He's still very little.

Also I'm not sure whether you've fully understood my post - when I talk about "holding him firmly" during tantrums or when he is crying, I'm not really talking about iron restraint - if he struggled too violently or became panicky about being held, I would put him down. It's more about reassurance and giving him the feeling that I can "contain" him when he is out of control - largely in response to his telling me that his anger scared him (comments like the one about the world shaking when he stamps his foot - pretty bit responsibility for a 4yo).

I would add though that I don't consider myself an ideal mother - far, far from it - and in fact my son (the one I'm talking about here) is currently under an IEP at nursery because he is having problems with communication/socialisation. It's NOT all rosy in my garden, believe me. I am just doing my best like everyone else.

[catASTROPHE]

zog, does he like music? Could you put on some soothing, or alternatively, loud angry music to help him work through his tantrum?

Also, some book I read talked about soothing/calming activities for kids when they are strung out - things like playing in a sink full of water, a sand pit, having a bath or back rub - really tactile things.

Or could you just sit with him and not try to get away, but ignore him until he calms down a bit?

any help?

[Zog]

Thanks for coming back to this. The trouble I find is that DS agrees completely when I say the kind of things outlined in your post - but when he's not angry. He knows and agrees he should count to ten, walk away, punch his pillow etc to mention a few of the strategies we've discussed. But when the mist comes over him, it all flies out of the window. I try my damndest to keep calm/ignore but he'll deliberately provoke me in a way I cannot ignore (I'll ignore him deliberately breaking my things, for example) by frightening or hitting his sisters.

He really is a lovely lad but it's as if a red mist comes over him .

[catASTROPHE]

zog, that sounds really hard. I hope someone has a good idea for you.

[Zog]

The music might help - I know the only thing that will work is him calming down alone. Once he's calm, he'll always apologise and I know he's genuinely sorry. When he was little, I would put him in a different room as many times as it took but since he's been bigger, I haven't found a way of persuading him to take himself off in the heat of the moment IYKWIM.

[Greenleeves]

Poor you Zog, it sounds very difficult

The only things I can think of to suggest you'll probably have either already tried or heard before, but: how about increasing the physical exercise he does, maybe incorporating something that releases aggression, like judo or kickboxing? My older brother had horrendous problems with his temper when we were youner and judo lessons helped him hugely, he had somewhere to take out all his frustrations and anger, and he turned out to be rather good at it and ended up with a black belt

Do you have a garden you could send him into when he really is being intolerable? I'm not keen on punishments generally (as you may have gathered) but if he is hitting and frightening his sisters he needs to be removed from the situation until he has calmed down. That's not a punishment, it's a safety measure.

Also I would try and do a de-briefing shortly after he has calmed down after a big blow-up, while the feelings are still raw but the anger has subsided IYSWIM. He might be more forthcoming about what provoked him then. Could you try having a special pad/pen kept in a drawer in the kitchen or something, so that he can write down what's in his mind and what's bothering him, either before it comes to a big tantrum, or afterwards? You could have an agreement that if he's written something down, you'll make time to sit with him an go through what's on his mind.

I can't think of anything else, but will keep thinking. All I can say is, there but for the grace of god go I, and many of us. My eldest is only 4, and I've already had to ask MN for advice in dealing with him LOTS of times. I don't know whether things will be better or worse when he's older.

[Zog]

Yes I think something like judo or karate would be good for him and I also think the special notepad could work well, thank you.

I think the thing that I find hardest with parenting is that you can never think "oh well, that's sorted, I know exactly how to deal with that child in that situation" - the goalposts are always moving

[Greenleeves]

lol, that's true. I keep finding grey hairs and I am only 29, I definitely blame the children

[catASTROPHE]

GS, any thoughts on my last post (request at the end for specific advice)

[Zog]

And the thing is, I really really don't want to smack my children - it doesn't work and it's devastating for everyone involved. I haven't smacked any of them for years (probably coming on MN and reading anti-smacking threads did the trick ). But the provocation I get from ds is unbelieveable, especially when he hurts one of his sisters whilst eyeballing me - I'm their Mother too and my instinct is to protect them at all costs. It's very difficult .

[catASTROPHE]

Thats a bit how I feel too zog - I know DD hurts DS to get my attention and in infuriates me. I do try so hard to give her the attention she needs. It is hard work this parenting caper.

[Zog]

catastrophe, in your trying situation I would remove her and put her in another room then walk away. Do it as many times as you need to. It does work well and hopefully you will be left with a dd who will stop when asked to when she's older (I've got two dds who it's worked for, just ds who's the problem).

[Greenleeves]

Hello catASTROPHE I hate the ignoring thing, it makes me seriously mad! Especially when you kno damn well they CAN hear you. When ds1 does it, I usually repeat whatever it was in a firm voice, then if he doesn't acknowledge me I go overto him, take whatever he's doing out of his hands, take his hands in mine and get him to look at me, and say something like "Please don't ignore me, it's rude", and then say whatever it was I had been trying to say in the first place. I usually tickle him or blow a raspberry at him as well, it breaks the tension [lunatic emoticon]

When mine snatch toys from each other (which they do, a lot) I usually turn a blind eye to it unless one child is hurt/distressed/seems to be always the one losing out (mine are fairly evenly matched at the moment). If it is getting out of hand and one child is being especially bratty, I usually take the toy in question away and say regretfully "Oh, if that XXX is going to cause fighting and snatching, we had better not play with it today. We don't have any snatching, that's not how we play with one another."

If one hits/kicks the other deliberately (mine don't do this much yet, but I'm sure they will) I tend to just move the offending child away by a few feet, gently, make a fuss of the injured party, and then have a quiet word and ask the perpetrator to apologise. I then harp on a bit (not telling off, just discussing with them both) about what it feels like to be hit/pushed and why we don't treat each other like that. If it's happening repeatedly I change the activity (might mean even sticking the telly on ) to break the pattern, IYSWIM.

But as I said, at least one of mine has got socialisation problems already, so there's no reason why anyone should want my advice

[Nightynight]

there isnt really a lot of useful stuff yet on this thread about really challenging children.

best advice so far is custy's - god, how many situations can be avoided with a little bit of forethought on the part of the parents! and strongteabag's suggestions.

all 4 of my children are very challenging. eg the naughty step, I tried at the appropriate age - they refused to sit on it for an instant, just bounced straight up, banging on the door. I dont want to go into details about their behaviour these days, but I dont think it is easy to understand unless you also have challening children. there was a mn thread about ODD - Oppositional Defiance Disorder (or something like that) last year, which might give you some idea.

When I have time, I use the I-can-wait-longer-than-you method, similar to what the carers used in Brat Camp. It is effective, but v time consuming.

[foxybrown]

Greenleeves - thanks for Angry Hands. My 5yo hits out at his siblings so I'm going to put this into practice tomorrow.