Nursery have just rang me

[Notjustaboything]

And I'm horrified but not surprised.

Ds is nearly 4. (Hes the 4th child but only boy). The nursery manager has rang as he has badly scratched another child as he wanted something they had. He has form for this and lots of other aggressive behaviour. She wanted to discuss how we can deal with him. I use star chart rewards at home which kind of works ish. Oh and he also laughed when he got told off. little bugger Wtf should I do? Is it just boy behaviour? Will he grow out of it? Or am I doomed to be called in to school hated by ither parents Help please??

[WankersHacksandThieves]

Op by either luck or good management, you've managed to raise 3 children with none of those issues so it's not that you must be a bad parent. It's just that for whatever reason your previous strategies aren't working with this child. I'd speak to the nursery with an open mind and without embarrassment, I'm sure they have vast experience of dealing with this and you just need to sync your home strategy with whatever they find works in nursery.

It doesn't mean your son will always be a thug or that you will be known as a thug family. Clearly the overwhelming evidence of 3 well behaved children shows that.

[Boosiehs]

I don't think OP's son will be known as the "thug". My comment was more that children shouldn't be allowed to continue with aggressive behaviour that injures other children.

either they are NT and should be dealt with as people have said above, or they aren't NT and they should get the help they need in order to help them deal with the behaviour.

[mikado1]

I have a 4.5yo here who was a horrendous hitter and he will still lash out physically at times if he loses it, rarely now thankfully (Though I think I will be eternally on the lookout/nervous because of prolonged hitting phase).

Anyway, I personally would ditch the star charts and the punishments (toys and aggression aren't linked and I prefer a logical consequence). At home - help him before it happens, I you and X are playing together I expect you to be kind to her, if you need me I am here to help (you may actually need to stay physically present depending on how bad it is and be ready to 'block' him and give him other options-ask her for the toy, tell her you're playing with it etc). Once he's got these, again, remind him of your expectations before he plays. If he hits/scratches, then remove him to another room or remove. So, aim is stop or prevent him hurt in others rather than punishing him. Emphasise the other person's hurt or happiness depending on behaviour and always see to his hurt sibling first. Connect with him-'looks like you're finding it hard to be gentle today, come in here and help me with dinner'. I know some people will think this is soft, I promise you I am firm and no nonsense about it and make it clear what behaviour is expected. If he's aggressive outside, he comes in.

Let's be clear- a 4yo NT child knows this behaviour is wrong, so my tack (which works with my child who only ups the ante if I get mad) is to be very clear that it's not ok but empathise with the feeling. Get him onside, expect the best.

What do they do in nursery, if he hits/scratches, then he needs to be/sit with worker if he can't be trusted to play with his friends. He'll see the benefits to playing gently and using words/asking for help if mad.

Ahaparenting and Janetlansbury worth a look if you think this approach might suit him. I know some will think I'm mad but tbh he can't ve the happiest if he's behaving like this so being down on him or generally emphasising behaviour over himself as a person are not the way to go. Imho.

Finally I totally get your mortification but he's not you, you're not allowing this and he's four, he'll get there

[Hefezopf]

"Don't shout, take a low and very firm voice, tell him clearly that we never, ever hit. NEVER. We don't push, scratch, hit. NEVER EVER."

Myschool I think you're right on the way to communicate. Personally I would be wary of telling a child "never ever" though, because there are situations - bullying, abuse etc. - where we'd be glad if they did push, scratch, hit etc.

We use 'The only time that you are allowed to hurt other people is if you are scared and need to get away', 'we don't hit when we are angry', 'use words' etc.

Good luck OP. With a consistent approach in home and nursery he's likely to get through this. 4 is still quite young.

[SpookyMooky]

Meeting with nursery is a great idea. Do it, and have a followup one too. Don't talk to the other parent.

You need a joint strategy with nursery for consistency and reinforcement but ultimately nursery has responsibility for keeping the other children safe, and they need to be on him dealing with the behaviours in the moment. You can't solve it from afar with evening sticker charts or chats.

One thing that helps my little boy - I think - is "special listening time". I told him I was really interested in what he had to say but he didn't always get a chance to tell me. Could we please have a special time when he talks and I listen? He adores it, and he often raises worries or bad things that have happened, which he wouldn't otherwise share. It's definitely got more out of him than just having 1 to 1 time at bedtime.

If you haven't already, read How to Talk....

I have never understood the taking away a favourite toy thing, it wouldn't have worked on any level for DS, just made him furious and more violent. They are all different. I think the naming their feelings thing as recommended above does help - I see you're really cross, you really wanted the train.

[IceBeing]

Star charts are bullshit. You child may well be carrying on this kind of behaviour because of a star chart based upbringing.

Children need to know from inside that hurting others is wrong. Not hurting others because you won't get a sweetie or a star if you do is terribly different.

He needs to develop his own moral compass not be trained to follow yours in exchange for doggy treats.

I would talk to him. You say his language is good. So ask him why he lashes out. When does he lash out, why....how does he feel before during and after. Keep talking...do natural consequences, if you hurt someone at nursery you can't go in the next day in case you do it again.

[minipie]

DD was a biter/hitter for quite a long time so you have my sympathies OP. (And she has a brilliant diet, no junk at all, and we were not soft on it at all).

In the end what worked for us was (with nursery's help) figuring out when and why it happened, and teaching her an alternative response in that situation. In summary we taught her that if someone made her cross, she should tell a teacher rather than biting/hitting. The teacher could then work out the situation (luckily DD is very verbal and very truthful!) and mediate accordingly.

Obviously we combined this with lots of "We do not bite or hurt anyone. Ever".

It took some time for the alternative strategy to sink in but it got there in the end. For a long time we used to say to her virtually every morning before nursery "What happens if someone makes you cross? What do you do?" and she would say "Tell a teacher" We'd say "What will you NOT do" she'd say "I won't hurt anyone". I think repeating this over and over finally got her to be able to control herself when the situation arose.

Essentially we had to teach her to overcome her impulses - some kids learn this more easily than others I think, and she needed extra help.

Of course, I say this with the caveat that this may not be appropriate if your DS is on the spectrum...

[minipie]

Oh and just to say - taking toys away, telling off and other punishments didn't work at all. She needed someone to tell her what was the appropriate alternative way to behave. Not just get cross with her/punish her for being aggressive.

[foxtrotoscarfoxtrotfoxtrot]

My dd can be vicious when she is over tired or getting a bug. It is nothing I have done wrt parenting or diet, as my ds lives in the same house under the same rules and has never bitten or scratched.

The best way I have found of reducing this behaviour is to take away her toys and lock them in the cupboard. She gets them back at the end of the day for positive behaviour. I also praise all good behaviour, even if it something as daft sounding as 'thank you for eating your dinner nicely', or 'sharing your toys' etc. Think about an appraisal at work. Recognition for the good things you have done boosts moral. Only hearing the negative makes you cease to care.

I sympathise, people judge, it doesn't mean you are a bad parent.

[a7mints]

Star charts are bullshit. You child may well be carrying on this kind of behaviour because of a star chart based upbringing.

My post was deleted for saying that.Apparently it is 'disablist'

[foxtrotoscarfoxtrotfoxtrot]

minipie that is useful advice for me too. Thanks!

[Redheadsreallyrock]

A7 your post didn't just say that.

[minipie]

a7 it's disablist (and unkind) because you're telling the OP her son's behaviour is down to her parenting, when she's just said he may well have autism.

And when MNHQ have deleted your post, you don't immediately repeat it FFS!

[GrumpyOldBag]

I had a son like this.

I found it helpful to remove him firmly from the situation when it happened - e.g at the park we would go straight home, if in a group situation he would be made to sit alone for a bit. And always very, very firm that it's not acceptable behaviour and made a big fuss of the child he hurt.

Don't know if it was due to my parenting but he stopped behaving like this quite quickly.

He's now absolutely charming, and takes his aggression out on the rugby pitch instead!

[minipie]

foxtrot my DD was/is also at her worst when overtired (sadly most of the time as she's a terrible sleeper) or getting a bug.

And yes to praising good behaviour, if all they hear is criticism I think they can "tune out" or decide there's no point behaving well.

[a7mints]

I haven't repeated it, and I had not even read the bit about autism , mine was a cross post.
I don't think it is in any way diasblist to say that having no sanctions other than star charts is weak and ineffectual parenting.

[Redheadsreallyrock]

I don't think op ever said she only used star charts

[Redheadsreallyrock]

A7 I think a sorry from you to op for being unkind now you know about the x post would be nice.

[a7mints]

Oh and I have a gifted 18 year old son who is mildly autistic.

[tonsiltennis]

A7 your post that was deleted, and your subsequent ones miss the fact the OPs child is suspected of having autism. And what that means is the usual menthods, including your suggestion of sanctions, won't work in the same way, if at all.

[a7mints]

.. and I certainly didn't have a 'no sanctions' policy with him.He really got right and wrong, black and white, punishment and reward.
So no.I think I am owed an apology if anybody is.

[a7mints]

A7 I think a sorry from you to op for being unkind now you know about the x post would be nice.
..and kindly don't talk to me as though I am 5

[hz]

This is your son so obviously you feel emotional about his behaviour and it's hard to know what to do. However, its important to take a step back and see if you can unpick what is happening. I am an early years professional and if I was faced with this type of behaviour the first thing I would do is observe the child. There is a model called ABC - this stands for antecedents, behaviour and consequences. When an incident occurs note the situation, what time is it (important!), who is involved, what area are they in, what toys or whatever are involved - in other words what may have triggered the incident. Then note the behaviour (hitting, shouting, scratching etc) and then, importantly, note the consequence - (sometimes the consequence is the cause of the behaviour - e.g adult attention, getting out of an activity, being taken to a different area etc).
Continue to make notes each time an incident occurs. Over a couple of weeks you would hope to see a pattern emerge. Is your child particularly grouchy before snack or meal times? Perhaps they are hungry - give them an extra something to keep them going. Is it when a transition is happening? Perhaps they find it overwhelming and lash out - solution let them go first or at the back of the line with adult support. Is it when they are playing with a particular child or group of children?
This may sound simplistic but it is very easy to miss causes when we are just reacting in the moment. Of course the nursery should carry out these observations.
I would also suggest that you talk to your son about what he could do instead of hitting if he feels angry or sad. Firstly, help him identify these emotions by naming them for him e.g' I can see you are feeling very angry. It's is not ok to hit when we are angry. Instead you can say STOP to whoever is upsetting you or tell a grown up'. If he does manage to come and tell a grown up he must be sure they will listen and act fairly by helping him to wait for a turn (making sure he does get that turn) or talking to another child if they have done something to him, etc.
Give him a chance to practice anything he is finding difficult e.g turn taking - do some board games.
I would also heartily agree with the comment another poster made about giving him lots of praise. Praise every good behaviour you see, make him feel good about himself, you will find it will help you to feel good about him too. A happy circle!
It's pretty unprofessional of your nursery manager to suggest an autism diagnosis. It's unlikely he/she's qualified to make this sort of judgement. Finally, don't worry about the judgers! There are no perfect parents, everyone is just doing their best. By asking for help you show that you are a lovely Mum.
If you are going to use star charts help him to succeed - break the day into chunks and reward him after each chunk (if he has been demonstrating the right behaviours) so he can feel like he is succeeding. Feeling like you are constantly failing is horrible for anyone. If you decide to take toys away tell him how he can get them back. Be positive, give him the chance to shine and he probably will! On the other hand everyone makes mistakes - especially 4 year olds, so once you've dealt with the behaviour move on, don't hold it against him. Good luck!

[Redheadsreallyrock]

A7 you of all people then may understand how concerned op must feel. A sorry would be kind.

[tonsiltennis]

Oh A7, do find something else to do instead of posting your goady shit. You've made personal insults to the OP and were deleted for it. Suck it up.