Worried again - autism?

[paradise]

Hi

I have posted a few threads over the last month, about my worries over my DS and his behaviour. Saw my HV recently about his language, using 4-5 word sentences although is quite unclear. She dismissed my thoughts on possible autism as she said he communicates and talks alot!! Jimjams or anyone, are you out there? I'll recap a bit-
DS is 2.5,

1. he has been quite aggressive with his peers over the last three months, pushing etc mainly over toys at playgroups, gets very upset. Even tells me when he's pushed somebody!

2. often repeats what I've said, but always seems to be in context. He also has started to say same things in certain places, e.g. will ask if we need petrol, whilst going down the same road, nr a petrol station.

3)has been humming tunes, singing alot, sometimes the singing doesn't even make sense. He's o.k when he's engrossed in an actvity, my dh thinks he's just amusing himself, just seems a bit strange sometimes.

4. Tantrums have become quite intense, will get upset over something slight, like the washing line being up!

5. loves his routines, although can be distracted from them more frequently now. e.g. his drink of water has to sit exactly at the same place when he brushes his teeth.

6)Sometimes bangs me with his head, although i did think this was just to get attention.

7)Memory seems exceptionally good

8)Lines up his cars alot and tells me that they're 'parked'when I ask him what he's doing. Seemed to do this after me buying him a garage.

Sorry, this has turned out to be a rather long post.
on the good side he:
1)points alot to things of interest
2)will look if I attract his attention to something
3)will copy me sometimes if I ask him to, although I do think he knows I'm trying to test him sometimes and doesn't want to do it.

I don't know whether to go back to my HV and try and convince her about my concerns or to go and see my GP. DS also starts his nursery this week, all be it just a transitional phase, 2 afternoons a week till July. Should I wait to see if they pick anything up?

Some days I feel fine and some days just seem to pick out all the bad bits. I love my little boy so much and just want to be able to do the right thing for him.

thanks for listening, it helps just writing it all down.

Yeah the good memory is often very localised as well. DS1 has an exceptional memory for tunes and anything visual (places and shapes for example) but almost no memory for words (has a special name which I can't remember- but its different from tunes).

Oh god maddiemo- we had a similar one over a thomas video. Someone gave us a pile of old thomas videos and the opening credits were different- it showed each engine rather than the windmill- he was furious!

Thats interesting Jimjams. Ds3 can remember song words very well(better than his speech level)but has yet to perform to cue. He is also a visual learner. It seems to be the short term memory problems that are holding him back in many areas. He forgets what he is saying and gets very confused and this is in part what makes his language disordered. The school also tell me this is hindering any real progress with writing. He is unable to recall what he is putting to paper(He does not like writing though, and the school have noticed he spaces out a lot when shown pencil and paper)

We did have reports before our review as we were supposed to submit comments in writing.

verbal recall- err maybe not. Anyway it has a special name. I remember telling a SALT ages ago before the dawn of autism that ds2's auditory memory must be ok because of tunes and she explained that it is totally different.

DS1 is the same- he can recite whole books (that rhyme) in his own impossible to undersatand way- the rhythmn is spot on, and once you've tuned into his speech you realise the words are there, but is unable to recall speech to string a sentence together iyswim.

Autism does weird stuff to language doesn't it.

Oh god I don't have to drag him to the paed again for a review do I? blueghhhh

Is your son learning language in chunks maddiemo? Ds1 definitely is for example 'I want cake" means something completely different to him to "I want biscuit" and he's had to learn each phrase separately (we see that in PECS- he won't generalise I want- each new iten has to be added to I want seperately iyswim although he gets it after the first time). I hoping he'll work out soon that langauge is made up of words and not an infinite number of set phrases- then I think we may get some movement. Until he gets that I think we'll remain stuck. Found his first ever proper (ie private ) SALT report at 2 and 5 months the other day (October 2001)- it's almost identical to his last one. Stuck stuck stuck!

Jimjams No we didn't have to see the paed. He just sent copy of the last report. It was a school report. There should have been a SALT report but we still have not got that.

Can I ask you a BIBIC question? If I would like ds3 to be assessed for a speech and language disorder do I need to tell them that in advance and will it cost extra. (dh was made redundant, starts a new job in July but still a bit worried about money). I know your ds1 had the CARS test, was that extra too?

thanks everyone for your messages, sometimes I do feel like I'm just a worrying mother!! especially when I hear of the tantrums that your DS1 has jimjams. Thanks agin for all your comments, MN is a bit of a shoulder to cry on at the moment!

You need to tell them in advance so that they can make sure the SALT is in- she isn't always there. It doesn't cost any extra though- neither does her report which is excellent. CARS test- just ask them for- again no extra cost.

Have you asked them about bursaries- or allowing you to fundraise to offset your son's account? They will help you organise that- and I think a few hours rattling tins outside Sainsbury's would probably almost cover his account. There was someone there doing that when we went. Her dad's work were recycling all their printer cartridges for BIBIC and all the money they raised was being taken off her account I think.
My cousins have just done a parachute jump in aid of BIBIC they were very helpful with organising it all.

Sorry cross posted JImjams.

If you mean does he learn speech in whole phrases then yes he does. He has been able to ask "Can I have juicy cup ribena" for ages but he has still had to be taught how to request other items and he tends to use set phrases for most things. I recognise them at once but I think to an observer it sounds like proper language.

In fact at our annual review we discussed that although his vocabulary has grown huge, his ability to use language has remained unchanged for 2 years. Can ask for needs at home and at school but little else. We seem to be a bit stuck too. To be honest because he always had some form of language, albeit echolalia from 2.6 I thought he would have made more progress by now. I am now starting to appreciate what the LEA Ed Psych meant when she said "he has got long term language problems you know".
I also find it hard to look at the autism whilst the language problems seem to be the barrier at the moment. Does that make sense?

His aren't too bad really pradise- they don't happen too often- I just wanted to describe how far removed from normal an autistic tantrum is. Lots of people seem to have been worrying about tantrums recently on here. DS2 rolls around on the floor at the slightest thing, but it almost looks like play acting to me iykwim. IME autistic tantrums are far more emotional - as his nursery manager said after one at nursery "you know what it's like when an autistic kid loses it- they've just gone and you can't do anything". I've never seen that in an NT child (although I've seen it in both high and low functioning autis).

Hopefully the description has put your mind at rest anyway....

Jimjams crossed again.

He is starting work soon so don't want to apply for bursary. Have been collecting mobile phones and cartridges though. I will give BIBIC a ring re SALT and CARS, thanks.

I am supposed to be filling in BIBIC paperwork now. I am doing a bullet point list fot them as a lot of the forms did not really seem to apply.

absolutely maddiemo- its the same for us. Without the language problems I think ds1 would have obsessive compulsive tendencies but the rest of the autism problems would be minimal. It's language language language.

I know what you mean as well- everything ds1 says/understnad is either a noun (huge naming vocabularly) or a set phrase. His set phrases are still limited and can sound quite odd (dye dye de uh dutton (press the button) as we pass a pelican crossing for example). He just seems incapable of "getting" verbs outsise a set command "jump" he'll do- but show him a picture "whose jumping?" no idea. BIBIC picked all that up straight away. I hadn't realised how disasterous his basic language was and I still get people saying to me "oh he understand everything you say to him doesn't he" NO NO NO and NO! He understands next to nothing. BIBIC said he's good a picking up on non-verbal cues (which isn't very autistic imo) but take those awaty and he is floundering.

They sound similar don't they- your son is just more successful at it iyswim! Am going to make a big thing about the language at this years reveiw- we've been sayong for ages its the key.

Would it be fair to describe autism as fundamentally a communication disorder, all other problems stemming from that fundamental problem?

depends really it has other features- such as the problem with imagination. ie all autistics have communication disorders, but you don't need to have autism to have a communication disorder.

Language is kind of different from communication as well- some higher functioning autistics/ people with AS have very good language but very poor communication. DS1's social communication isn't all that bad- but his language is diabolical. Which is why for us language is the key. MOst ofd his tantrums are over an inability to communicate- he "wants" to and always has. Other autistic children are able to comminicate quite well when they choose to they just don't see the point.

Yes they do sound similar. We are lucky that ds3 speech is crystal clear so that makes his life much easier. I thought he knew verbs at 3 and I remember the portage lady saying she didn't think he did. At 3.5 we had SALT and I really convinced myself that he had comprehension that just wasn't there. At four he started at his unit, at the first meeting they said "he doesn't know any verbs". I said "But we have been practising them for two years". At that point I think they realised I needed careful handling.

Have to say I think he has got them now. He has good understanding at home and at school, it falls apart a bit when we are out and he is stressed.

He has never asked me for a sweet in a sweet shop and for some reason that makes me sad. It is just such a normal kid thing to do.

He is being taught how to say "Help me please" at school as he is a bit too fond of staring into space and letting everything pass him by.

Having rambled away, he is making very good progress at the level that is his own

But maybe that's a type of communication disorder, too -- not understanding the value of communication itself?

What did you do to teach verbs? I want to start going big time with them. I was thinking about cards and "give me jumping" etc (or do you teach "jump"?) He's quite good on ones he does himself just not them recognising them iyswim.

Also in on and under? No idea about that. Spent ages doing that put the car on the chair etc. He knows that that means either on or under (if given to him in a very set way) but then he just guesses!

NO ds1 never requests anything. never asks for a toy or anything like that- whilst ds2 is screaming his head oof for something :I want this want that. HOWEVER he has finally got the idea of presents Really enjoyed last xmas, birthday and his last day at nursery. He finally understands the point of them (if he's not impressed he just drops them on the floor though!)

well yes- as anyone with autism does have a communication disorder, but the actual problems they have within that vary considerably- although that point is often missed. For exam[le we were unable to access SALT for a year because I was told that as my son was autistic he didn't want to communicate and so SALT was pointless. However he was trying desperately to communicate he just couldn't. The nice thing is that at last twe have pros working with him who see that- a few weeks ago his autism outreach teacher commented on how desperate he is to communicate- he just can't. Unfortunately the original SALT we saw just can't get the concept of an autistic child wanting to communicate.

We had a great NHS SALT who gave us a lotto sheet game of verbs. Although this only works if it can hold your ds1 interest. We also did a lot of "This is the way we sit on a chair, sit on chair, sit on a chair on a cold and frosty morning". I think there just came a point at which ds3 was ready and able to take them in and retain them.Although we did all the ground work it came from him.

The SALT at school helped with the on and unders. He would struggle with them in a long sentence or a stressful environment. A lot has clicked for him this year.

I can dig out the lotto game and send it to you if you want.

It is very hard not knowing when or if something will click.

His private SALT is doing a lotto game with him- I'll ask her more this week. Thanks for the offer though- I may well take you up on it if you're not using it anymore- I like to collect props And we have a looooonnnng summer to fill! I want to have a chat with the SALT anyway. Now the LEA have agreed to fund her visits into school
I suspect you may be right about there being a right time for things to click. ABA is really helping with his imitation- if we can begin to work on speech as well it could make such a difference.......

Feel free to ask. I tend to collect info and papers like mad. Have all portage worksheets too, you never know when that gem of info that might work for you may crop up. Good luck with ABA.

Thanks maddiemo

I've had a chat with a child psycologist who has researched language aquisition Jimjams and she said that children start with 'on' and 'under' when an object is in the middle of the platform (IYSWIM) then, as they mature their concept of 'on' spreads outwards to anywhere 'on'. Similarly with nouns. When they start to learn them a dog is a lab sort of dog, and they generaly extend their concept of 'dogness' to cover animals like bulldogs etc.

Could you put a pecs for 'on' in the middle of a table etc?

I think autis do it differently though hmb. It;s the old disordered (rather than delayed) langauge again. So for example I could teach "put the car on the table" but then I would have to teach "put the car on the chair" as a whole seperate thing, and "put the teddy on the chair" as a completely different thing again. Which thinking about it is kind of where we got to- he just couldn't distinguish on and under- maybe too many keywords in a sentence.
Tried pecsing it all out but didn't help. I think it was too much. HOwever am going on a PECS course next week so may get some tips.

SALT said just to work on one- "on"- but I still think we'd have to teach every noun, object combination separately. I suppose he may generalise eventually.

God, you lot were busy on this thread yesterday! Have got fed up trying to catch up, but did pick up a couple of things. My DS also has a good long term memory (e.g. will point to someone's house we haven't been to for ages and only went twice!) but poor short term memory, has to be prompted to remember what he's doing but it has got better with repetition and work. Were you talking about video scripting? I remember reading a thread on the US ABA egroup I belong to, a poor mom saying that her child was repeating the same lines from a video over and over, you know "Barney likes to skip and play" or something. I was soooooo tempted to write in and say (lie) that mine does the same and says "freeze motherf+cker, you're going down" or some such. I thought it was funny but not sure they would!
JJ, we've worked on prepositions on and off over the years and find that on, under and in are OK but next to, behind, in front at tricky and, if you think about it, you can see why as they are more intangible and dependent on where you're looking from. There's lots of techniques and resources, I'll see what I can find.
Last thing, I have an amazing memory for song words and always thought everyone else did too but realised that they don't. I have a song for every situation (drives my DH mad!).
Oh, another thing (sorry), someone said something about autism being a communicaiton disorder but it is much more than that and AS is too. THere's all the sensory stuff for a start, the unevenness of ability, the social connection, the repetitive and OCD stuff, the strange use of vision etc etc.

I wonder whether the strange visual stuff is the reason ds1 suddenly won;t go into places (like the aquarium, friend's houses etc). He seems terrified and the fear seems to come out of nowhere right at the door threshold iyswim.

Righti must go and pick him up from school. GRRR GRRR GRRRR GRRRRRRR but that's another rant!

Do deaf people have a communiction disorder? I guess they do. But they're not autistic and they don't have a langauge problem, or sensory problems. I guess that goes someway towards explaining the difference.