He say 'thirteen fourteen' but can't or won't say 'Thursday Friday' why oh why is this?

[tigermoth]

Title says it all really. My son, 5 in August, in reception since January, will happily, clearly and with no hesitation recite his numbers in perfect sequence up to twenty. He can say 'TH'irteen, 'F'ourteen' But ask him to say 'TH'ursday 'F'riday and the rest of the days of the week in sequence and it is no go.

I tried to teach him the days a few months back but gave up as he wasn't interested. All his class recite them as a group at school. Yesterday, after he counted up to twenty, I asked him to tell me the days of the week. He said 'monday, tuesday, wednesday.....friday saturday sunday. I told him he'd missed one out. He was very upset and bewildered. Over the next half an hour dh and I repeated the 7 days ad infinitum, got him to say, 'thursday/friday' got him to sing 'thursday/friday' but could we get him to say 'mon, tues, wed, thurs, fri, sat, sun' - NO!! we tried to get him to talk along with us, we bribed with chocolate, we threatened him with an early night, we told him he was just being silly, but nothing would make him say 'thursday' We had to end it because he was getting really upset. Tonight, dh asked him the days of the week and ds said ' monday, tuesday, wednesday,THURSDAY... Saturday' Ahhhh!!!!!!! After a few more attempts dh told him he'd go to bed and miss desert and his favourite TV programme if he wouldn't say the days of the week. Ds said, 'OK' and went upstairs to bed. We felt so mean that we brought him down.

Frankly, I am getting worried. I just cannot see why ds is not happy to recite the days of the week. I don't believe he can't do it, but for some reason he does not want to do it or gets afraid to do it. He won't tell us why - well he did say 'yes' when I asked him if he didn't like saying 'TH' but then I remembered he says 'THirteen' with absolutely no probs. The same with his age - he will simply not admit he is four. If you ask him the how old he is, he says he doesn't know, yet he can easily count to four, knows what birthdays are, knows some people are older than others. It's as if he rejects certain questions, just pulls a mental blind down. He doesn't tantrum about it, just calmly ignores the question and won't cooperate. My older son was never like this. Has anyone elst had this experience with their 4 and 5 year olds?

I do not know how ds2 will get on at school as the emphasis gets more towards 'reading/writing/arithmatic' in year 1. I know learning the days of the week is not so important right now, but ds's approach is making me feel very apprehensive and puzzled.

Tigermoth, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds a bit to me as if you are using ds1's behaviour as a template for how ds2 'ought' to behave, and I can't help but feel that they are clearly very different people and therefore are likely to behave in quite different ways. I think in this instance comparing them might not be a good idea - esp as your memories of exactly how ds1 behaved might be a bit blurred now - I can't remember all sorts of things about my ds even a year ago.
I sometimes think we do expect our children to be little performing monkeys - and I certainly recognise myself in that, believe me. We want them to perform to order 'say bye bye' 'What colour is that?" etc etc . I do it myself and I do sometimes catch myself and think, what am I really trying to achieve here? Is this for him or me? I often think it is just for me. I do have to rein myself back from being a pushy mum - I love it when my ds learns something new (counting, his alphabet etc) and often try to persuade him to repeat stuff for the benefit of others. I do however, think this is my weakness as a parent. Perhaps he is more stubborn and more independent than his sibling, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Being corrected can be irritating at any age - my dh tried to correct the way I read a poem to ds yesterday and it made me feel EXTREMELY stubborn . As for school, well that's a very different issue IMO. I don't know what the MN teachers would say, but I think most of them would say that kids can react very differently to a teacher than they do to a parent and that they will let you know if there is a real problem.
I really don't want to sound critical of you. I do experience a similar frustration to you when my ds won't do things 'correctly' - but I think that might be my problem, not his.

ds1 can count to twenty but leaves out 14 (he's 3),
i have no doubt that he will learn in time and think it's quite cute at the moment. Someone reminded me before that children don't generally start college in nappies/not knowing day's of the weeks/counting etc so I always think of this when I worry about his development. All he's doing is reciting a sequence - days and numbers etc are abstract and still don't mean a whole lot to children at that age.
He sounds like a pet actually tigermoth, i really don't think you should be so focused on this - it will turn into a power struggle like mealtimes and toilet training - the child will always win in these situations if you push it.

Tigermoth- please remember though being UNABLE to imitate can be a problem (even if it doesn't signify another problem- it is one just becuase everyone assumed children imitate) but CHOOSING NOT TO copy is not a problem.

Forget teaching things at the moment. Think about play. Does your son copy his older brothers games? DS2 copies everything his brother does- which is fairly noticeable as half of it is insane - usually with a confused look on his face "hmm why am I sniffing this trampoline?" If your son copies games then he can copy. DS1 cannot copy gmaes. He has now been taught to imitate some things- and after 6 weeks of 3 hours one to one can now copy pushing a toy car, putting a toy tomato in a box and clapping. This is what I mean by not being able to copy. He would never copy something ds2 did for example, or any other child.

Tigermoth - dont know if this is any reasurrance but one of my boys' best friends birthday is in August and he just point blank refuses to say his age. In his case I really do think that most of the other children in the class are now 5 (which they all go on and on about) and he just doesnt like having to say hes younger.
His mum is a friend of mine and she mentioned she was worried about him being upset about being th youngest so weve got the boys to make a big fuss about the fact that hes going to be able to have a birthday party in the summer.

Sorry - i know this doesnt really answer yr question but hope it at least resassures that there are other children doing the same.
Kizziex

ds2 say polar bear but not pole.

Tigermoth, just wanted to echo what others have said here -dd2 is 5 next month, and although I haven't recently asked her to recite the days of the week, I don't think that she can - in English or in Welsh (language at school). And when she counts to 20, she always leaves 16 out.

Must admit, though, she does know how old she is (and uses it as an excuse for her bad behaviour lol).

Does his teacher say that he refuses to answer questions at school? I've always been amazed to hear how well behaved and angelic my children are when I go to parents' evening - cos that's not how they are with me, not by a long chalk

Tigermoth, dd2 went through a similar phase of either forgetting or refusing to say particular words. She wouldn't say her older brother's name for many, many months, and simply blanked us out if we spoke about him. She did the same with other things, though of course the bro thing was the most significant to us. Tbh, although we were concerned for ds's sake, I didn't think it signified a problem and at some point she must have stopped doing it as I'd forgotten all about it until your post.

tigermoth, I have to agree wholeheartedly with aloha. I think that you need to celebrate that your ds has a mind of his own and refuses to copy just because that's what he's supposed to do. My dd at 18 mo. is like that. She can count to 10, but god forbid you should get her to do it on demand. Or anything else for that matter. She is absolutely determined to do things on her own and in her own way. I'm sure that when she is 4, if she doesn't want to tell me that that's how old she is, she won't. My mother says that I was exactly the same way as a child. And it never hurt me in life or scholastically (i was always top of my class). My ds on the other hand is much more likely to copy you to please you, but as soon as you go away, he's right back to doing it his way.

I think that you are doing your ds and yourself a disservice by trying to push him about something as trivial as the days of the week. Pick your battles. Also, remember that he is probably acutely aware that you want him to say thursday and the bigger a deal you make of it, the more likely he is to use it as a weapon for attention. Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but I really think you should give your ds a break and just have fun with him. Let the school do the teaching and only if they have a problem should you even begin to think about it. He's only 4. Give him a hug for remembering 6 of the 7 days, not a punishment for leaving out 1 of them.

just to reassure you all - I do not spend all my time punishing my son for not knowing basic things I think some of you are mistaking my general worry about his approach to learning for a single worry that he will not say say 'Thursday'. I was using that as an example!

One of the class aims is to know the days of the week, so his teachers presumably feel this is not an impossible task for a reception year child. My worries aren't focussed on hitting this target, or indeed any of the others that were outlined to us. Can't even remember what most of them are - it was months ago. No doubt my son will hit some and miss others. He gets simple worksheets, but we don't do them, as I know he is not ready for them yet - the teacher realises this and agrees. If I was to attempt the worksheets I would have to push him. To be honest, I think a bit of pushing and prodding doesn't hurt in the grand scheme of things. Not all school age children are naturally hard working perfectionists. I expect we'll do more of this next year, but it's not top of my agenda.

Of course I compare my two sons and see nothing wrong it it at all. It's natural. They are the only two boys I know that well. Comparing them is different to judging them - I don't do judging - I think some of the messages imply I do. Just as the views you're giving me are based on your knowledge of your children, mine are based on my knowledge of my children. I've got to start somewhere after all Whatever I've forgotten about my ds age 4 (and you're right aloha, how memory blurs so quickly) I do know, without any doubt, that I was never worried about his ability to show us what he knew - quite the contrary - he was a show off if anything.

I am reassured to find so many children of this age don't know their numbers or days in sequence, so thank you all for posting those details. It's good to have a raincheck if nothing else. I'm sure my oldest son got his days and numbers mixed up around this age, but I didn't dwell on it as he would (usually) repeat the missing words. Also interesting to hear, roisin, that your two sons are different in how they share their knowledge and that you, sofiaAmes, liked to keep your knowledge to yourself when you were a child.

My youngest son, from babyhood onwards, had the habit of shutting off the world at will - it's hard to explain I guess, but IMO it's more than just not listening. I know this could just be independence and stubbornness - character traits but I am not sure This is why I started this thread. It is not me worrying over trivial details - though it's his reaction to details like repeating the days of the week that bring my worries into focus. Others have noticed it - dh, nursery and school teachers. As yet no one has said it's a huge problem, but all have said it is a problem.

Ds is soon going to be ending the 'learning through play' stage of school and will have to respond to more questions in year 1, and do what he is asked to do. His teacher is a bit worried about this, although I assume she has similar worries aobut other children in the class. We haven't been called in for any long discussions anyway.

Incidently, my youngest son said yesterday that he will tell us the days of the week when he is older.

Tigermoth, I just asked my son if he could tell me the days of the week and he started at Tuesday. He got it right in the end but not straight away. I know he's older and this was only an example you were using though. Could you leave it a while and if you still feel uneasy in say, six months, perhaps then get a second opinion, if you still think there's something slightly odd in a can't-put-your-finger-on-it way?

Yes, I would like to hear how year one teachers get the more reluctant ones to open up.

Well, my mind was on this today and when ds2 and I were out, I did something that will have some of you up in arms, no doubt.

I bought ds2 a toy garage at a boot sale. We were having a happy, relaxed time. On the bus home ds2 was looking forward to getting his toy cars out and playing with the garage. I said - that's great, tell me your age and the days of the week and we'll do it. Not in a threatening way, just matter of fact. And he said the days of the week with ease. I praised him loads. Then the big test - could he tell me his age and his full name? (that's another issue we have). He held up four fingers and then said 'four' and said his full name. I suspect he will go back to not saying them again sometimes, but at least he knows I know that he can do it.

I also told him how really happy I was that he was telling me what he knew - I told him it's a bit silly if the answers just stay in his head all the time, as they do no good there, do they? He said he would tell me the answers to things, but only when we go out together. That seems fair enough for now. Hopefully I have sown a seed and made him more aware that people like to know what he knows.

Some of you may disagree with the above. But ds2 is not a toddler now. I expect a bit more of him behavourwise than I did two years ago, and that includes answering an easy question or two. I was pretty sure those answers were ones he knew already. There is no way I would push him to learn unfamiliar, totally new things. That's the job of the school. Incidently I found a class worksheet listing things for parents to do with their children at home. One of those was practising saying the days of the week.

If my son wants to say 'I don't know' I'm not going to be doling out punishments all the time. but I want him to know it's not going to win him much praise either. It is not a good habit to get into and might get him into trouble in the big outside world of school.

The answers on this thread have really made me think about my feelings on this, so thanks all for posting.

I've not replied on this as I could see how tense it was getting...
It might possibly come down to control
You know he could do it, if he wanted to.. so stop worrying about that, you know he can or could...
Just think about why he with holds the answers...
Could it be exercising a little power?
Worth a thought?

could be, but in that case, has he been exercising power that way since he was a little baby? Did he have the capacity then to think that way?

The thing is, he has always had a marked tendency to not respond when he didn't want to - right from the time people smiled at him or called his name when he was a baby. The 'I don't know' answers seem a continuation of that. But yes, it could now be mixed in with a power thing too.

Tiger -- come late to this thread, but here's my 2p worth...

My ds (5 in July, in Reception since Jan, like yours) has also been known to leave out Thursday from the days of the week. Also consistently missed out sixteen when counting to twenty. I think it's a memory thing. Wanted to check whether he was still doing it, so went down to ask him (he was having supper with his older sister). Conversation went like this:

Me: Can you tell me the days of the week?
Ds: Silence, just looks at me as if I'm stupid.
Me: Please, can you just say the days of the week?
Ds: NO!!
Me: Why not, sweetheart?
Ds: BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO, ALL RIGHT?

This is a child who is normally sunny, co-operative and delightful at school and universally popular; at home sometimes all of these things, and sometimes less so. I should add that dd1 (8) was also looking at me in a 'you're weird' kind of way during this conversation, which led me to the following train of thought.

Younger Reception children, particularly boys, do seem to find a lot of what they are asked to do in school pretty meaningless in itself. The girls seem to find that kind of abstract thinking easier, and are also usually eager to please. The younger boys on the other hand not only completely don't see the point of what's being asked of them, but aren't very good at it even when they do try.

This must be quite a disempowering experience -- refusing to co-operate or deliberately making mistakes seems a fairly sane strategy to gain back some of that control. My ds, who is doing reasonably well at school, also often refuses to give his name or his age when people ask him; he's also been known to tell people he's five, although only when I'm not around.

I know that soon my ds will be able to count to twenty without unaccountably missing out sixteen; he won't say 'hekilopter' or 'Pinnie the Wooh' any more, and he won't suddenly forget what 't-h-e' makes after six weeks of reading it perfectly. All of these things will be necessary progress, but it won't stop me missing the comical, eccentric and downright odd little person he is today.

hth

I went through a "thing" with my ds whom I knew to be perfectly if not more than capable of tasks he was set. Spellings per example, even now aged 10 and diagnosed as wonderchild he still pisses around and pretends he doesn't know some words when I know he does,, he adores wind up...
I'm not saying your ds was like it as a baby, but who knows what our angels know and when...
But if he has a "learned response" which gets him something he revels in, he may employ it.
The simplest way to fix this (if what your ds is doing is this (and I'm not saying it is) but it "could" be) then we paid a good £200 out to family pysch who turned around and said
Attention seeking behaviour is embedded from early childhood, whether good or negative emotional responses are triggered to the parent, any response in a yung child is positive result... so they learn to expect a result, its not fault or blame..
And when we took away the response.. we lost the problem...

Tigermoth, I am sorry if I seemed unduly critical. That truly wasn't my intention. I think I was a bit like Sofia as a kid - I DID think it was more important to know things in my head that tell them to other people - just my stubborn nature perhaps. Sometimes I even liked that I knew more than people thought I did. I did OK at school and university and in life. I also agree that attention seeking is sometimes a mystery to child and adult alike - they don't fully understand what they are doing and why any more than we do. Also "I don't know" can be attention-seeking/a way to end a tedious conversation/a way of saying 'back off, I want to do something else....or lots of other things - not necessarily a problem.
I do know what it is like to think there is something different and maybe not quite right about your child - my ds is so far behind his friends physically now that it is noticeable - the tiniest step necessitates getting down on all fours and backing down it, he can run but only slowly and clumsily etc - but my only worry was the punishment aspect which I do think is counter-productive at any age really, but definitely at four. Of course I don't think you are cruel or anything ridiculous like that, just maybe letting your anxieties get the better of you from time to time. I can identify with your feelings too.

Ds usually comes home from school and when I ask him what he did he normally says nothing or I dont know. Of course they did lots and he knows and some children his age tell all. I think that is also perfectly normal.

Frogs, I think that's a brilliant post and I wholeheartedly agree. I think, as a rule, boys are less inclined to "perform" than girls.

Tigermoth, I agree with aloha and everyone else - it seems such a trivial thing to fight about. Choose your battles wisely, as someone once said! I appreciate that you are worried that it may be indicative of an underlying problem, but if it is, it is, and making a huge issue out of it now won't help.

My ds1 is 7 now and has never been a great co-operator: I don't think he ever saw the point. He's quite content to take a back seat at school and they are only just now beginning to realise what a bright boy he is (I hope!) Your son maybe just doesn't see the point, maybe he genuinely has trouble remembering the missing day/number, maybe he doesn't care - I just don't think it's that big a deal. Now you know he CAN do it, just let it go.

Thanks for the messages everyone - frogs, that post was so helpful. I am sure my ds does find some of the school questions meaningless. If he sees others in his class able to do reading and mathes basics while he can't, he probaly does get a bit p*** off and feels disempowered. Add that to the fact he is very young, and he's never ever been extra eager to please or respond, and I can see how he might just back away, throw in the towel and say 'I don't know'. I could be wrong - I will chat to the teacher.

He always runs eagerly into school and has lots of friends, so it seems that whatever is going on in the classroom isn't making him hugely miserable. My 10 year old spy (older ds) keeps me reliably informed of his playground and assembley time behaviour as well.

Piffle, thanks for saving me £200.00!

I started off the thread suspecting there was an element of attention seeking in his behaviour. ie he was doing it to wind me up. In my universe, sons who deliberately wind up mums will, in the end, get punished. But,(and this is a most important but) I hadn't linked the attention seeking to the possiblity he feels powerless and wants to grab back some control. Reading all these messages together - aloha's, frogs, piffles, etc plus seeing that other of children of this age withhold information has made things hang into place more. This behavsour is not something I did as a child or something my oldest son did, so I have never experienced it before.

I can see that ignoring it is best, but as someone said here, it's a hell of a lot easier to ignore 'I don't know' answers, if you know your child does know the answer really. As ds is so little and has been doing this for ever, it seems, I really am ignorant of what he knows and what he doesn't know. On the one hand, he can look through a picture book and easily explain the story to me and remember words, but on the other hand he won't repeat his middle names! Telling me his surname is a rare occurance. But agree that ignoring is the best route. It won't quell all my worries, but it will do for now.

I don't know if he equates witholding infomation with winning power. As you say, Aloha, why he does it might be a mystery to him. I do think it is important I do talk to him a bit about not keeping everything inside his head - he certainly likes getting on with people. I do want him to be aware (just in case he is not) that people are more likely to be friends with him if he answers their questions.

Tigermoth, just a little anecdote about "knowing" things. When my ds was almost 3 we started telling him that his birthday was on November 18 and that he was going to be 3. He then proceeded to proudely tell everyone he met that on Noveber 25th he was going to turn 3. No amount of cajolling or explaining was going to change his mind. If we tried to correct him he would tell us that we were wrong and that xxxx had told him that it was the 25th. xxxx could be anyone from mummy (if he was talking to daddy) or daddy (if he was talking to mummy) or the childminder (if he was talking to mummy and daddy). Who knows why he wanted his birthday to be the 25th rather than the 18th. And in fact a week or so before his birthday, he did in fact decide that his birthday was in fact on the 18th. I wouldn't in a million years describe my ds as defiant or disobedient.....he just has his own way of looking at things. Good luck, your ds2 sounds like a wonderful child. Maybe he'll find the cure for cancer because he insisted on doing things his way.