Still soiling herself and nearly 7 years old.

[Raximobie]

At my wits end. My daughter will be 7 in November. She never really potty trained properly. Always contrary, she refused to go to the toilet from the start. I tried delaying till she was older, to no avail. She calls the shots with the toileting and will only go when it's in her own interests to go and not because I suggested or asked or demanded. I have to keep checking her regularly for soiling or wetting. If I don't physically sit her on the toilet sometimes, she will not go and then she'd soil herself minutes after I've stopped asking her . I have tried every positive and negative incentive under the sun. She gets bored after a few days even if she is doing well and getting her rewards and will revert back to soiling again. She is on long term movicol laxatives to prevent constipation because she'll hold it back to prove she doesn't need to go. She is seen by pediatricians and other specialists but they are unable to help, but to give suggestions on incentives and routines.
The house has a constant smell about it. I'm constantly throwing out her clothing which are too soiled to be washed, she goes through underwear like tissues for a person with a cold. I cannot let her go to friends houses because I'm embarrassed that she soils herself.
I'm exhausted.
If there is a light at the end of this tunnel, please show me.

Could you talk about germs or illness - if she's soiled herself and sits on the chair she's spreading germs for other people and so she has to consider the impact this could have on others rather than herself. (not sure how you say that in a chilled out way)

Could you tell her that she needs to help you clean up? When i showed my son how he needed to rinse his pants whilst flushing the toilet, then to further rinse in the sink and then to put them in a bowl away from the other washing.
Then I reminded him he had to wash his hands thoroughly and then clean the sink out properly with anti bac cleaner. I told him I was getting a bit bored of doing this for him too often and that he'd have to do it himself from now on.

You get the idea of course!!

Dh and I have noticed a huge difference. Dh is sure that this made him really aware of how much time it took and hassle and that ds wasn't willing to waste his time doing it. My time was fine, of course! He really hasn't been that bad since my meltdown that day.

WooOoo, I do explain to her about germs and bacteria especially when I find her sitting on the sofa or bed with soiled and/or wet clothing. Are all 6yos hygiene-conscious yet? I still have to remind DD1 who is 9 to wash hands after loo and before eating.
I've never tried getting DD3 to wash out her own pants but I do get her to clean herself and then to clean up the loo, floor, sink, bathtub and even the bin. She makes a huge mess while getting undressed and cleaning herself.It just goes everywhere!
She doesn't seem bothered.

That's interesting about the movicvol. We tried senna many yeasrs ago but not for that long as it didnt help.

We are down to 1.5 sachets a day but when we reduced to 1 there were more accidents. We did have 2 months when he's was 99% normal (taking himself and feeling it) whilst on movicol though.

I was going to try the ignoring it/total indepence thing in summer holidays. We always crack after half a day!

Weirdly my son is very keen on and washing and tells on his big brother if he hasn't done it and even tells visiting friends to do it. But he's fine sitting in poo!

feel your anguish, dc 10 here with same problem, on-going since 6yrs. saw a new paed recently who put him on a movicol clear-out over half term, increasing sachets from 2 over 7 days till he was on 12 a day actually he must have the constitution of an ox as even on 12 sachets he did not have runny poo. will be repeating in 6wk hols if necessary.

I do not believe it is physical, I believe its a psychological issue as the soiling is inconsistent and some days he doesn't do it at all, no rhyme or reason, however the pead insisted he go on the clear-out to make 100% sure he has no backlog.

Sorry that hasn't worked for you Raximobie. It must be more frustrating for you if she doesn't seem at all bothered.

My son is a year older than your dd. We'd had no tests as GP seemed to think it was something that will improve with age. I was exasperated with it all and am embarrassed to say I got cross on a couple of occasions. These were after my suggesting he try to go as we had to leave for school for example. He didn't bother and then...argh.

Perhaps Gp was right - it has got so much better this last 6 months. So, I hope there is hope for your dd too.

we had a good book called 'liam goes poo on the toilet'
quite a nice story which is a bit social story-esque.

www.amazon.co.uk/Liam-Goes-Poo-Toilet-Training/dp/184310900X

OP This is different to what we have been told now we are under a leading gastroenterologist. It was explained to us that long term constipation or faecal impaction causes mega rectum and that causes loss of sensation so they cant help the soiling. The fact that the soiling is inconsistent does not mean it is causes by a loss of sensation is not the cause. My DS is due an operation to try to correct this as movicol/sodium picosulphate have not helped regain sensation.

Did your D's have an analrectal manometry to test his sensation? They only do them at GOSH I think. What is the op he's having?

We have the Liam book in the poo section of the bookcase! Along with the classic "It hurts when I poop"

We are not under GOSH and no one has ever mentioned an analrectal manometry. I had seen them whilst googling but it always seemed to advise against them for children so I had never questioned it. Just googled now and can see that GOSH do them. No idea why it was not considered for us. DS had a colonoscopy and endoscopy a few years ago and they said he just had mega rectum and inflamed stomach. Our hospital advised if a child got to age 9/10 and was still soiling and lacking sensation and had been on medication for it for several years it was very unlikely to improve by itself but said there were several options for operations including botox and biopsy for hirschprungs amongst other options. We see a colorectal surgeon.

Thanks, that's really interesting.

thanks for that info, will ask about all that at the hospital

OMG...i can't believe it...this could be my daughter you are talking about. she turned 7 in April. i struggled to toilet train her...she appeared to "get it" in the day time after a couple of weeks persistence a couple of months before she turned 3. she still isn't dry at night and the nappy is consistently heavy and even warm suggesting she has weed in relatively recently before she takes it off.

she has been on movicol for quite some time now. my understanding of it is that it helps to keep the stool softer for passing less painfully and i only give her one sachet a day. though on occasions when she has held it for over a week and it's become imapacted i had to up the dosage until it was passed.
i have been to the doctor with her and alone to discuss this a few times...yearly maybe...just to say things haven't really changed and finally this year someone took me seriously and agreed to refer her to camhs...great i thought...except there is a waiting list and i have no idea when she will be seen :o( i have alos requested she be check out in case this has caused any physical problems as it has been going on so long but i definitely think it is a mental thing.
as i child i definatly didn't want to go to the toilet and had accidents though not as far as i can remember as severely as my daughter. she will wee in the classroom and it does not bother her or that she smells of wee or has been going around in damp pants all day.
i have suspicions that something might have happened to her a couple of years ago that i wonder if they are related but noone seems to take my concerns seriously and tells me i am mad or imaginging it or that it is "normal" i just don't know i am just trying so hard to be a good mother but i am way out of my depth as i wasn't ever parented myself so i don't really know what i am doing. the thought that i haven't done right by her or have let her down and am getting it wrong just crushes me because i don't want to repeat what happened to me...i have wondered if the toileting thing is a control thing...as i got older i became anorexic. i don't want that for my daughter. i never want her to feel as sad and lonely and isolated and unwanted as i felt. that thought...well i just can't take that. i feel i am trying my best but it isn't good enough and i can't keep going for much longer. it is all such a sad sorry mess. bless our little children x

I'd be more concerned that your 7 year old has been diagnosed with stress and anxiety - fix whatever is causing her stress and anxiety before you try and 'solve' the toilet problem.

njam - are you still anorexic? what were you worried about that might have happened to your daughter? have you spoke to anyone about it in real life?

Hi essexmummy

Yes I am still anorexic...i think...well I had it diagnosed in January and I have struggled to come to terms with it. I don't understand really and get confused. I thought I was recovering and gaining weight meeting my goals so it came as quite a shock. It seems to be very complex. My behaviours are deeply ingrained and its and on going battle. ..its easier in some ways now but harder in others. I'm determined to beat it somehow even if I die trying. I have found invaluable support that i feel blessed with so hopefully one day I will be truly recovered.
As for my daughter. ..I became suspicious that she was being abused or groomed. I spoke to the school and social services I was told I had insufficient evidence. It was horrendous. And u had no support from husband he said I was seeing things and bonkers. She already had toilting issues I just wondered if they were related I'd just not seen signs before.
She seems fine now apart from poo/wee problems and I don't think anything is happening now. This is all too much.
njm

njam, Hi there,
Apart from the anorexia and the suspicions of abuse, I lives seem to be the same.
I have the same concerns about my daughter, CAMHS, pediatricians and psychotherapist all seem indifferent to my concerns and just tell me to keep persevering with what I'm doing. DD3 is on 3 sachets a day, any less and she withholds it.
I too was neglected as a child and felt alone and unloved and unwanted most of my childhood and I too had wetting problems through till early teens though no soiling.
I never wanted that for my children and that I am helpless to do anything to help DD3 with her toilet issues leaves me feeling inept and useless as a mother.
I don't know why she does it. She is a happy go lucky child with good humor and loves laughing and joking. She has lots of friends - who have started to notice that she spends more time taking out time from school for appointments than the average child.

My dd used to be the same and it feels like things will never change, but it does get better.
Are you getting any support for yourself?

I go to counselling once a week. I get things off my chest and I feel better for a bit but it doesn't last.

Glad your going for counselling. It does get easier in time, I promise. It might not seen like it now. I felt like I was going crazy at the time and that it was my fault and felt like I'd failed dd, as it must have been something I'd done. I realise now it wasn't my fault.
Come to mumsnet when your feeling low and get some support. Wish I'd had it when dd was having her problems.

Glad your going for counselling. It does get easier in time, I promise. It might not seen like it now. I felt like I was going crazy at the time and that it was my fault and felt like I'd failed dd, as it must have been something I'd done. I realise now it wasn't my fault.
Come to mumsnet when your feeling low and get some support. Wish I'd had it when dd was having her problems.

I know this is a very old thread. But if anyone on it has any advice or a positive update I'd love to hear it as I am going through this with my DS and feel as though I'm losing my mind.