everyone is telling me to bite him back...

[kitbit]

This is a bit long, but am desperate to find an answer to this one so want to give all the info possible! Thanks in advance kind mumsnetters for reading.
At the risk of starting another mudslinger thread, am hoping some wise mums may have some advice for me and my ds, 20mths. He discovered that biting someone at nursery made them take their hand off the toy he wanted to play with. Whoopee, result. Now he keeps doing it. He occasionally does it at home and we have tried:
time out/chill out space/whatever you want to call it but = removing him from fun activity and expressing disapproval. This seems to have the most effect but clearly the effect is not permanent or even cumulative
sterm firm voice and scary face, eye contact etc
mummy bursting into tears
baby sign language to try and get across the idea of pain
ignoring (clearly not going to work)
working on positives ie sharing/taking turns/giving/gently playing all of which he does beautifully most of the time except that occasionally he just forgets it all and goes back to biting
rationalising it (tricky explaining to toddler who only has 10 words or so and who doesn't yet get abstract concepts)
turning biting into kissing instead
He hardly does it at home any more but still does it at nursery at least a few times a week and they have told us we have to deal with it. (They use the thinking chair which he refuses to sit on.)
Here's the question: everyone I have asked including friends with babies, parents, mum's friend who was a nursery school teacher about 15 years ago...all have said that when he bites me I should bite him back. They all say "oh yes, my son/daughter bit someone once and I bit them back. I cried for hours after I did it but it was worth it, they never did it again." ???!!! For me personally this feels all wrong and doesn't suit my parenting style but EVERYONE is telling me it's the only thing left to try and I must do it. I am not one to usually bend to pressure over my parenting choices but am really feeling the push from all and sundry including the nursery whose next step may well be to ask us not to bring ds any more which would be a disaster not least as he really loves playing with all his little friends there and is otherwise the sweetest, happiest, kindest most affectionate lovely little boy, which incidentally is freely acknowledged by the nursery.
HELP there must be something else? There MUST be. Anyone?

I know the ratio is not good, and although we need the time for our own business we can of course change things if it would be better for ds and take him out of nursery. But to be honest, I feel a bit of a failure because all the other kiddies there are perfectly happy, not biting, and getting on just fine, so I am thinking "what am I doing wrong?" The nursery head also put in her 2 pence worth about potty training (comparing ds to another girl 2 weeks younger who is completely potty trained...well goody for her, we will be waiting until we can explain it to him and get it all done in a week instead of struggling for months with an unhappy incomprehending ds) and saying he was unnecessarily babyish for preferring his morning drink in a bottle instead of a sippy cup and that we must change this in order to help him "advance". Then she went on to say "but we think he is very bright, and is one of the most affectionate children we have, always happy and smiling, full of life and loves playing with the others". God help me if she ever discoveres we coslept. I don't think rural Spain is ready for such "new fangled ideas".

Am just confused, feeling a bit of a failure and wondering if I should just move back to britain in order to put him in a better environment!!!! aagh.

well. i was in the same boat for a year. and it was hell on a stick. and eventually to my utter shame and total regret i bit him back. and that didn't work either.

i read the book 'how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk'. it changed everything for me. he stopped biting.

if you do a search on my nickname and biting you'll find loads.

don't bite him back. doesn't help. and goes against everything parenting should be about.

Babe- he sounds utterly normal and great and you sound very far indeed from a failure. The nursery head sounds like her ideas are quite old fashioned though and for such a young child- practically a baby really- I think the bad outweighs the good from what you've said. He doesn't need other children to thrive at 20 months, does need supervision which at 12 babies (are they all as young as him?) to 1 adult he's not getting, is way too young to potty train and will be able to pick up Spanish later on. It sounds like a setting that might be suitable for him in about 2 years if he is a normally developing little boy, which everything in all your posts suggests that he is. In the mean time I would look elsewhere for childcare, if you need it and there are no other nurseries. Maybe a local teenager could help out if this is a short break for you type care or you could get a nanny if you need childcare to work/on a regular basis. Please don't beat yourself up- your parenting sounds lovely and your boy a normal affectionate cutie. I honestly think the nursery sounds like the source of the problem.

I think the expectations for a child vary broadly from one country to another, and unfortunately your child would have to learn the rules of the place in order to fit in , I'm telling you this as the expat I am.

Now, if it makes you feel better look around, there are plenty of lovely kids in Spain so they may not be doing everything wrong.

I think that we all, at some point, feel dubious about our childcare settings, I know many here would preffer to do the work themselves but sometimes, it's just not possible to stay at home. I don't know how often he attends but if it makes you feel better, less sessions per week may be a good compromise.

I'm sure there are different cultural approaches and rules about staffing for early years in different countries, Chandra, but it may well come down to an indivdual rubbish nursery- and there are planty of those in the UK as well- or one that simply doesn't fit kitbit's baby's needs right now. I must admit I just don't see the necessity for nursery at kitbit's son's age unless child care is essential or he is clearly benefiting...

Oh yes, I very much agree with that. Find the best you can afford, as good and bad nurseries can be found everywhere you go.

I thought she mentioned she was working, hence my suggestion.

I totally sympathise, my DS was a biter for ages and ages at least a year if not longer he's 3 1/2 now and hasn't done for about a year now. I know that doesn't help much, but he will eventually grow out of it. My DD's also had biting phases, but they were much shorter, he is the youngest and I think some of it was attention seaking - I had three children in three years, so it was tough in the beginning.

I also had the same bite them back advice and like you didn't want to go there, my DH mostly agrees with me on this parenting stuff, but he got exasperated one day and did bite DS. The upshot was me livid and DS in tears for a minute or so, but he continued to bite. To me it was like smacking - how can you teach a child not to do something by doing it yourself.

DS went to nursery at two I told them before he started that he was a biter, but they completely understood that this was a normal toddler behaviour. He did on occassion bite another child and was told off at nursery, put in a quiet space etc they never made me feel bad about it, but did always report it to me.

I met a HV who specialised in 'difficult' children and asked her what I should do , she had also had a biter and said that the only way was to hover over them and remove them immediately if they looked like they were abou to bite. She acknowledged this wasn't easy, but said it would break the cycle. With two other young children it was intense, but as much as I could I did hover and whisk him away, didn't say anything, just removed him. I think it did help.

Ultimately I'm afriad the only answer was time. It's increadible hard on you I know. FWIW I would take him out of the nursery if you can they sound awful abou this and the potty training. (DS was trained around his 3rd birthday and it took a day or two). However if practicle reasons dictate that you can't move him, don't feel guilty - try to listen to your instincts they are usually right.

I have just skimmed through so sorry if I am repeating anything!.

Firstly, I am shocked that the nursery are putting this on you, the only way these things can and should be handled is consistantly by all involved. Secondly they should not tell you how to deal with it, they should sit and discuss the options for a united front (and I assume they are not going to bite him? )

I have heard people who have commited bitters who have had great success with screaming (although it may mean taking him out of nursery for a few days to let it work.) The idea very simply is that when your child bites you you shriek so loudly that it makes them jump (and possibly upsets them) it has to be instant and followed up by a cuddle, sorry mummy didn't mean to scare you but that really hurt etc. Apparently the effect can be very good and whilst it is not nice to scare your child it is immediatly followed by a hug and appology. THe idea is not to punish him, just to give a very dirct consiquence of his acions - one he will not like!

I don't know is this idea will sit wiht your parenting approach, but thought I would through it in the melting pot as I know others have used it to great effect.

PS sorry for the typing - dd3 is helping

I agree with 80smum to a certain extent, that the nursery should be supporting you in your efforts to put a stop to the biting, but I do not agree that the problem is wholly the responsibility of the nursery. Nurseries are there to provide care and education to young chiuldren, not to provide parenting skills or act as parents to the children in their care.

Saying that, however, the nursery should be supporting you and your ds in tackling this negative behaviour. The nursery saying that they will exclude your ds on the basis that he bites is a bit of a cop out in my opinion, but if the ratios in Spain are so poorly organised, you have to expect that the support is not going to be the best. Show me a toddler who hasn't experimented with biting. It just doesn't happen! Or if it does, that child is in the minority!

Saying no when your ds bites and simply watching him will allow you and the nursery to determine when the biting is going to take place. The nursery should be doing observations on the children in their care, so will be able to work out a pattern. Does he bite because he wants a toy, is it because he is near a certain child, a sudden change in routine???

If the nursery isn't prepared to look out for the reasons as to why the biting is happening, they cannot exclude your ds, as they have cannot have an action plan in place to deal with it.

Maybe meeting with the manager/key worker and asking them to observe your ds over a period of time will help you all identify the reasons for the biting and then help you come to some sort of conclusion as to how to deal with it.

By the way, I certainly wouldn't bite a child back. I don't like to be bitten so try to imagine it from a child's point of view. They are too young to understand and as someone else rightly said (can't remember who as I've been waffling for so long!) it gives the signal to the child that biting is acceptable.

Kitbit

I started this thread a while ago on a similar subject and got some really good advice.

(Twiglett's post at the end is good and summarises what a lot of people said, if you don't want to wade through the whole thread.)

Having followed this broadly since that thread, there has been none of this behaviour, except for the other day when he didn't have a daytime map, was knackered and got beyond the point of no return. So I can vouch for the fact that it works...slowly but surely.

My friend's DS head-buts. She butted him back and he still does it, surprise surprise!!!!

no no no no NO - how could anyone suggest you bite your baby? Don't give in to them, you'd just end up feeling guilty.

With DS if he does stuff that's not nice or throws a paddy we get down on his level, look him in he eye and just say a very firm 'no'. Then we pick him up a sit him on the bottom step in the hall and say something very softly and simple like 'no hitting, it makes mummy sad' and then we leave him. He usually sits there for 5/10 secs then comes back to play. We've been doing this since he was 19 months ish and he's 22 months now. I know he probably doesn't understand what I say as he's sat on the step but I read that if your toddler is frustrated and angry, a display of 'calmness' from you shows them that even though the world feels out of control to them, mummy can stay calm so it's like an anchor for them and helps bring them down too. I also think he's too young for 'time out' or discipline in that way - everything's too immediate. I did this initially to sort out a problem he had hitting, it took about a week to sort him out though I expected it would be longer. It was so effective though I use the tchnique for any bad behaviour including tantrums. I've only ever had two occasions where it's not worked instantly and those time he did calm down within a few minutes of me just sitting next to him on the step (but not giving any attention).

You've had loads of great support, advice and ideas here - I hope it all helps. I think the main thing that comes accross is pick a simple method and be consistent. It will work but things take time with toddlers so don't expect miracles. And when you've sorted this out I'm afraid there'll be something else! I bet he's adorable most of the time though, enjoy him while he's little and cuddly!

PS - about the potty training, personally I wouldn't even consider it yet with my 22 month old and plan to wait until around april next year at the earliest (unless of course he shows me he's REALLY ready) - you can't compare kids at this age especially as it depends so much on laguage development. If he gets to 4 and still isn't trained then fair enough to comment but ignore that lady, she sounds silly and unrealistic.

Presumably as leaving doing stuff to children which leaves a mark is now illegal, biting a child must fall into that category.

I put ds on the bottom step...but he really likes that so at a loss!!!
Pull his teeth out?

More fantastic advice, thanks so much everyone! ScummyMummy, funny you should say that, we are actually going to look into other childcare options, such as finding a childminder that has 2 or 3 others of a similar age so that he can still play with others (his favourite thing in the world) but will have more focus on him. trouble is we cannot find anything useful like a register or official network, so will be going to local pre-schools on Sept 1st when they all reopen to ask for recommendations then we just have to look at what's available and prices etc.
SecurMummy, am thinking about the shrieking option...sounds interesting. I don't want to scare him however showing him a scary consequence of his action that isnt actually a repeat of the undesirable behaviour might be a good thing. I did actually yelp last weekend when he bit me but not loudly enough to stop him in his tracks, he just looked at me with curiosity, so I might consider this one, thanks for the idea!

MagicGenie, thanks for the link to your previous thread, very reassuring to hear it's working for your family now! That's really good to know.

Nursery tells me it always happens in tussles over toys and yet we have been working on sharing and taking turns which he does perfectly well (and willingly) when with us, so I am inclined to agree that it is down to supervision and also location - he sees this as a "nursery" technique that he uses there so we need to break this cycle. Will be having another chat with the head I think. When he does it at home it's entirely due to frustration and nearly always when I need to take something away (got hands on something dangerous, or been warned about not hitting TV with a brick but is continuing...ah, boys!) or when he doesn't want to be lifted up and moved and he can't make me put him down any other way.
Anyway, am aware that now I am rambling but I am really reassured by everyone's posts that I'm not too rubbish a mummy after all and that my ds is not the delinquent I thought they were suggesting he was!
Hope this thread has helped some others in the same boat too.
x

Kitbit, good luck with finding your solution to this, I am sure you will work it out together before too long. (Especially as he is lucky enough to have a Mummy who can follow her heart and her instincts rather than being bullied into somebody elses solutions)

Biting a baby that age is not only cruel, but totally ineffective. They don't have the mind-power to translate that something that hurts them will hurt you, and therefore they shouldn't do it. They simply haven't developed the capacity to project how THEY would feel onto YOU. Likewise, making a big play of being hurt is merely entrertainment, and likely to increase the motivation to bite!
DS bit me a few times. The first time he did it he caught me by surprise and I shrieked, so of course he did it again. I just immediately put him away from me, making no eye contact, just ignored him for a minute or so. You could try that - and if he bites another child, put him 'away' without eye contact, and make a fuss of the bitten child. Apparantly that can sometimes work.

Haven't read all the thread so I'm sure some of my points will cross over with others. My lo is 23mths and we've had this same issue on and off for the last 6 mths to the point where last week he was in the nursery incident book for drawing blood!!! At home he mostly targets me with it and its an excitement thing - at nursery it tends to be a frustration thing - he doesn't do it anywhere else. We are very firm with him on the fact that biting is not acceptable (lots of when you bite it hurts etc) and he goes in the naughty corner. I too have had lots of 'bite him back' etc. I have very vivid memories of my little brother being bitten back by my mum and him being beside himself that I have never been able to bring myself to do it. Unfortunately I think it is a phase and you have to ride with it and continue what you're doing. Nursery is a very competitive environment and you son will learn other techniques to win his fair share of spoils!! The nursery need to make it clear to him that its not acceptable too though and also recognise that a lot of children do this and you son is by no means the 1st or last!!!!

Blu, you didn't shreik loud enough then!

We had/have the same problem. DS picked up this habit from nursery and decided to try it out at home. My dh bit him back to see if it shocked him into not doing it again (something i disagreed with). This didnt work, so now we just get to his level and say 'NO BITING'. This normally makes him cry and he then wont do it for ages. Nursery seems to be a different story. We used to get told he had biten 2-3 times a week, and now after about 9 months it seems to be once every few weeks. I have told nursery that they need to deal with it. What can i dop from 15miles away? I am happy for them to discipline him how they see fit and if they can crack it then great. What can we do to stop them biting whilst we are working?..... NOTHING!