how far ahead would you withhold 'treats' as a punishment?

[lilibet]

Couldn't think of a good way to ask what I wanted to know, so the title probably doesn't sum up my question very well.
Atm, my boys (7 and 10) are having a week with no tv after deliberatley setting the burglar alrm off on Sunday morning to get me up when they know that I lie in until 8.45. Other 'punishments' are bringing bedtimes forward by 15 minutes, usually use this when getting ready in the morning, ie ' if your teeth aren't clean in 2 minutes you will go to bed 15 minutes earlier' This can lead to very early bedtimes on a particularly bad morning!
So, how far ahead can you go with this system? Or what do you do with children of a similar age? If they are little sh**ts again sometime this week and tv gets banned for another week and then they are horrid again and so on, I could end up banning tv till they are married! Neither has a tv in his room.
I do find it very hard to control them - the polite phrase is 'full of life' .Which means that they are the children you want to avoid if you go somewhere public! And other than giving in to all my basest instincts and clobbering them, I go with the deprivations theme.
no matter how much I try to explain the results of their actions in a calm and reasoned manner they still misbehave so much. A recent example being ' if you throw toys out of an upstairs window, they will break , you won't get replacements and as its dark what would you do if they land on the cat and kill her'?
10 minutes later, more beyblades being launched out of the window, result no beyblades!
How do people get well behaved boys?
aaarrgghhhhh!!!

I do like the pocket money idea as that is something that doesn't affect the other one if one is horrid and one isn't also known as the 'look at me mum I'm being good' syndrome! But I do agree with Janh (as usual ), how onearth do you keep track of it all! How old is your son Tigermoth?

Juniper, after an episode at Christmas when both boy's have overdosed on coke and chocolate and were literally bouncing about , both are now severely rationed. (my house sounds so terrible, but its not really!), they have fizzy pop when they go out and chocolate as an occasional treat. Apart from on Sunday when they were both given a selection box from their football coach, found where I had put them after they had one thing each and they polished the whole sodding lot off!!
May talk to them about pocket money - Janh I bet this is really making you look forward to eating with us at Pizza Hut later!

i used to do a points system with dd and ds (each point worth 50p) and they would earn points for good behaviour (and lose points for bad behaviour), then convert points to money at the end of the month. Then I changed it to a weekly payout, because a month was too long (even though they're 12 and 10 they have zero ability to tolerate delayed gratification!).

Eventually I stopped doing it altogether because I didn't like the way that everything became motivated by money - e.g. doing something nice for someone else would be followed by "how much do i get for that?". I just didn't feel comfortable with that, would rather they did nice things for others for the inherent satisfaction of being nice if that makes sense

Re pocket money: We have a 'pocket money book'. I didn't want to give the boys 'a lot of money', but I didn't want them to spend it on sweets or junk, or to lose it down the back of the sofa. So rather than giving them cash, we just write it in the book. They can then save up for something special, (usually Lego Bionicles atm for ds1).

Also if relatives give them money, or they get cash at Christmas or birthdays, it goes in the book. Makes it dead easy to keep track of everything.

Anyway, the relevance here is the book is always to hand, so we can always add a bonus to the book. We don't actually remove pocket money - positive spin and all that - they get a basic amount, and then can earn bonuses for doing chores, or for achieving specific targets - usually for behaviour. (And once a bonus has been earned it doesn't get taken away for bad behaviour.)

lilibet, my son is 9 years old to answer your question.

Ok here's a bit more info: it's not too difficult to keep track of the amount because on average I only make 3 or so adjustments a week. I threaten to withdraw money lots more, but the threat usually works. That's because my son is really into having pocket money and buying yugioh(thanks Mr cheese) cards. IN any case my son keeps a close check on his current 'balance' though has been known to err on the side of generosity.

Cunning and cruel, I've set his pocket money at £2.50 a week. Most packs of cards cost £2.99. So he has a real incentive to be extra good and get an extra 49p.

I know the problem is that he might associate good deeds with financial reward, but in the grand scheme of things I am willing to risk this if it keeps him behaving ok. He knows I can be very capricious about rewards - if I feel happy with life he's more likely to get one, if I've just had an angry discussion with dh he's unlikely to strike lucky. I take the long view as well, or try to, so one good deed in a mornig of bad ones is unlikely to get him far, but then again it might, he never can tell.... So doing a good deed is no guarantee of a reward. I keep deliberately vauge as to what and when he can expect any reward. That's so there is no direct correlation and I have to say he only asks for a reward on average about 1 time out of 5. And if he asks, I usually say 'no'

For me, punishment should not take away hope - prisoners get remand and their sentences cut for good behaviour so why not 9 year olds?

If my son has a punishment with no hope of reversal IME his bad behaviour phase is likely to continue for longer. His already bad mood is made worse and he less incentive to start behaving better.

Hope that all makes some sense!

Tigermoth - thanks for that last bit, that is so helpful. I sometimes feel a dilemma when I have threatened a punishment, and ds1 appears repentant. Then I still feel I can't 'change my mind' because that would be 'giving in'. I really like your positive spin on that situation ... and I'm sure you're right, as usual. (I'm kmg1, by the way, just fancied a change!)

roisin, thanks for that. Honestly I don't know if I am right, but it's just the way I do things for now. If you saw my two sons, you'd hardly call them quiet and obedient, hanging on my every word, so my methods don't work miracles. I always think you have a good spin on behaviour issues, you seem far more organised than me!

forgot to say, my pocket money methods owe something to past mumsnet discussions on punishing for bad behaviour. Someone else made the point that children should always have the chance to redeem themselves and so, if possible you should find a way that they can earn back a privilege. I took that on board and it sort of linked itself to the giving of pocket money.