concerned

[concerned23]

I have a friend who has a 3 and a half year old DS, he is 4 months older than my own DS. She has always been one of those people who has felt the need to tell everyone how advanced her son is, how he was feeding himself at 10 months, brushing his own teeth by a year old, playing with toys designed for 3 year olds at a year old .. you get the picture. And he?s always been treated as if he was much older and capable of so much more ? he was given a 5 metre trampoleen for his birthday and an off-road bike, (the kids? variety but none the less designed for a 7/8 year old?) for Christmas. I?ve never really taken much notice of this, after all, we all have different aspirations for our kids, and all want them to be that much better than everyone else?s? But the one thing there has been issue with is his speech. He didn?t really start to talk until he was about 2, no big deal really as kids all talk at different ages, although comments were being made about him not talking yet as soon as he got to about 10 months old. And here?s the issue, when he did start to talk in sentences, he started to stammer, quite severely. She would just laugh it off and say that all kids do it, that he was just doing it for attention and that it wasn?t anything to worry about, she even shouted at him and told him not to be so stupid and to talk properly. her parents/inlaws did suggest she see someone, if only to confirm that it wasn?t anything to worry about, but she flatly refused. Anyway I didn?t see her for a while, and then I saw her at my DS birthday party. There were loads of kids there, and all of them were talking 10 to the dozen, apart from this child. If he said 2 words during the whole afternoon it was a lot. I paid no attention really but then saw him a couple months later, and the same scenario occurred, and the couple things I did hear him say did still contain the stammer. My DS has recently started nursery at the same place as this child, and last week when I asked if he and this child had played together he said that he had tried to talk to him but that he doesn?t talk to anyone at nursery. I?m just so worried that the stammer has caused this child to lose any confidence he has with regards to verbal communication, and that instead of trying to talk, he just doesn?t bother to talk at all. I can?t help thinking that this is going to harm him with regard to his confidence/self esteem in the future, and yet his mother is totally in denial. I know it?s none of my concern really as this is not my child, but I can?t help being concerned really ? any thoughts?

I worked in a nursery a couple of years ago, and we had a child there who had speech problems (not a stammer) which the parents refused to acknowledge or do anything about. Unfortunately if the parents refuse to co-operate it can be quite difficult to get the child any professional help. It will be picked up at school and it should be followed up if the school is at all proactive on this issue - oral skills are such an important part of the curriculum. My dd1 has some issues with communication (she is very shy) and she has one-to-one with a Support for Learning teacher (we are in Scotland) - but it wouldn't happen if we had refused it.

All I can say is that, she will be put under pressure from the school to do something about it, once he gets to school. Unfortunately that doesn't guarantee he will get the help and doesn't help him in the short term.

concerned, I agree with Miaou.
SALT is much more effective before the age of 5. Feel very for this little boy if his mum is telling him to snap out of something he surely cannot help.
Not much experience with stammers but DS1 had a speech/pronunciation delay and we had SALT which really helped.
What wouldn?t have helped was telling him to stop being silly and talk properly!
Can you have a word with her in a nice way? or do you not know her well enough?

concerned23, I have heard that speech problems are often not referred on for help until the child is school age. Apparently they so often clear up as the child matures, that it may not be worth treating as a problem before school.

It does sound as if this child's upbringing may have something to do with it, as the 'advanced' descriptions and age in-appropriate toys seem like a wider picture of pressure to achieve what is naturally beyond the child. I think I might 'clam up' and struggle to express myself if I were him, poor little thing. Maybe it's his way of exerting some control over his pushy mother - she can't make him speak!!!

I do feel for you as it's so frustrating to see the situation this child is in yet what can you say other than to criticise her parenting?! I guess just wait and see how this child develops. He's still got time.

I have a friend with a daughter with very noticeable pronunciation probs. They seem completely oblivious to it or in denial not sure.
Whenever I am with her I try and teach her how to say things properly but she needs speech therapy I'm sure. So far the schools not picked up on it ( she is 5) but am hoping they will do soon!
It's so hard isn't it?

How often do you see the child though? Lots of kids do stammer- at age 2 and 3 it is practically considered normal. DS3 stammers a bit when excited because he can't get the words out fast enough. The little boy may be shy, in which case SALT is going to do bugger all. If there is a problem (and to be honest its far from clear to me that there is), then I don't see that you can do anything anyway.

When ds1's problems became apparent I talked to one or two of my closest friends about it, not every man and his dog, so she may well be doing something anyway, just not telling you.

dd1 had a stammer, she grew out of it. she does still do it occasionally when stressed. a lot of 3.5 year old boys don't talk much IMO!

What do you mean by "teach her how to say things properly" beejay? Ds2 was dxed with a speech disorder at 2, at age almost 4 his speech is considerd within the normal range and he has been signed off speech therapy. He still has some pronounciation problems though and if one his friends parents decided to "teach him how to speak properly" I would be livid. I don't generally talk about his speech problems (probably because I don't see them as a problem), and if someone asked me I;d probably say that he's fine- which could be interpreted as me being in denial, when actually I would just be not boring someone with talking about the SALT he's done.

My dd who has just turned 4 and goes to mainstream nursery (with a statement of special needs). She has had SALT input since she was 2 years because of her development issues. The SALT is coming to my house tomorrow as she feels my DD needs to be referred for actual speech therapy lessons.

My dd when she is tired has developed a stammer/stutter and when she is tired she will say, for example, w w w w when can I have my bath? (repeats the w until she says the word, and it most happens on "w" words). When I spoke to the SALT about this on the phone she said that they do not differentiate between a stammer and a stutter as they are basically the same and I was not to make an issue out of it. I am not to say the word for my daughter (in helping her to say what it is she wants) and that because her speech has been (and still is) delayed it may be that her brain in kicking in and she has so much she wants to say so she gets stuck on a word.

BTW you should never correct a child's speech - you just model the word correctly. So you don't say "don't say it like that say this" you say "crisp? oh you want a crisp" (ds2 can;t pronounce crisps- but there he;s had it modelled to him correctly twice in one reply. )

I agree with dexter....sounds like the pressure of being this woman's pride and joy has caused the poor little mite to clam up. He needs patience and space. I doubt he'll get it by the sound of it. My DH had a very similar mother, he achieved everything she wanted academically (exhausting himself in the process!!) but still stammers when he is tired or nervous. Criticising or drawing attention to it makes it worse.

Alternatively, my DS1 (3.4) is very "verbal" - language is his big thing - and he is often in such a rush to get his words out that he trips over them and it can sound a bit like stammering. I have to tell him to calm down and take his time, and then it usually turns out he had something very important and complicated to tell me and his brain was running faster than his mouth (bless him)!!!

I do hope the poor kid isn't living under so much pressure it's stopping him from expressing himself

Sorry didn't explain myself properly. Friend's dd was mispronouncing and confusing t and k noises, so I just showed her ( in a very relaxed and non- pressured way) the different place you put your tongue for those noises...
It seemed to help (temporarily anyway) and I gave her loads of praise when she got it right...
Really didn't mean to interfere it really was just like a game, my dd joined in etc

DS2 can't pronounce k or g (subsitutes with a t/d usually) - the SALT has said that its still within the normal range and that they are often the last sounds to fall into place. She signed him off unable to pronounce k or g anyway.

I can't remember the ages but I think k and g are meant to have developed by 6 (maybe later- I was surptised how late was considered within the normal range). I'm not at all worried about ds2's complete inability to pronoumce them (and he can't - even when shown- just says 't'). I'm not remotely in denial about anything though. I would be pissed off if he developed a complex though because every second person he met asked him to try and pronounce the words correctly, sorry but I would. I'd also be pissed off if I heard someone saiud I was in denial (someone did once- told ds1's school- I was livid as I'd never actually met the person who said it, nor had she met ds1- anyway the accusation was laughable I thought he was autistic 2 years before he was diagnosed).

am I thick? When you say "k" does that mean "c" as well, as in "cake"?

Point(s) taken. Didn't mean to piss you ( or anyone with children with speech probs) off...
Was only trying to be helpful to this little girl but should probably have held my tongue ( so to speak)

yep- back of the throat sounds- can't do them- substitutes with front of the mouth sounds eg 't'. - actually just aked him to say cake (its his birthday next week and he did use the"c" -- he said "cate".

Think so, mom. The hard "k" sound.

Actually I have a slight speech impediment - can't do "th". Had some speech therapy as a child and various people have had a go with me over the years but failed to make inroads. I think it is because I have a short tongue. IIRC from the phonetics/phonology modules of my linguistics degree (threw that in to prove it didn' hold me back ) it is formed at the front of the mouth.

you didn't piss me off, because you didn't do it to ds2- but if you had.... I don't get cross very often, but I would have been! Probably cross enough to say something (which is unlike me)

my ds can do "g" and "k" then but not "f"... he says "sh" instead, eg "shishy" for "fishy!!! Is that normal? I've never really thought about it before!

I thought he would say "tate" so it must be coming.

yep- another one that takes a while. Apparently its common for speech sounds to not be entirely developed until 7 or 8 and unless your child is completely incomprehensible (as ds2 was) then you don't worry.

Oh good!! Actually it may sound terrible but some of the immature speech is so sweet I feel sad when he starts saying it right

If your ds can say "cate" then it sounds as though he's cracked it!!

Jimjams and others, my ds1 also had a problem with k and g, like others here used to say t and d instead. At nursery the SALT said it was normal, not until he was in reception ie nearly 5 was it considered a stage he should have achieved by now.
SALT as I say did help (you?re right about the tongue thing, beejay, we used to play games/look in the mirror etc). He could certainly distinguish eg knew the difference between key and tea, tho he said them the same.
He?s 6.5 now btw and LOADS better, tho the k at the end of black for example is still tricky.
I think it sounds like yr ds2 is fine JJ.

DS2 has speech problems (probably related to his glue ear) and DS3 is not developing at the average rate either (different problems though- DS2 slurs and mispronounces, ds3 just doesn't talk. Strangely, ds1 talked V V early.

We have been told by speech therapy Sure Start outreach worker/ HV that they are both too young yet to assess. DS2 is stuck on an eons long waiting list and won't be assessed again until his glue ear has been treated (? at this rate when he is 23) and ds3 is just too young officially to have issues, even though childminder also agrees he needs help.

I agree with GBIYJJ that the mother may not be telling you the full story. A lot of the details in the original post could easily apply to my ds2(2.11yrs). He really could do things like feeding himself with a spoon at 10mths etc. He didn't speak until he was about 2 and now often stammers a lot at the beginning of sentences. He didn't play with age-appropriate toys (definitely no off-road bikes though!) and has a small trampoline. What you wouldn't know - unless I specifically told you - was that ds2 has been getting help for the past year because he is autistic.

His development is disordered to the extent that his fine motor skills and gross motor skills are well ahead of where they should be. His play-skills are limited (hence no age-appropriate toys) and his social skills have needed a lot of help. The trampoline calms him down and is a real sanity-saver for us. He sees a speech therapist once a month (all that is offered on the NHS and we were extremely lucky that he got even that!). He has no problems with confidence but still stammers while he gathers his thoughts.

I generally don't bother explaining all this to people unless they need to know, eg the staff at his pre-school. To outsiders it probably looks as though I'm not all that bothered about his difficulties.

OTOH I don't agree with the way the boy in the original post is shouted at or told not to be stupid etc. It sounds to me as though she is somehow trying to 'save face' in front of other people but that's only a guess.

A lot will depend upon where you live but in our area there are informal pre-schooler sessions arranged where parents take their child along to play and have the opportunity to ask a speech therapist about any concerns they might have about their child. It may be worth going along to one with the mother if she is agreeable to it.