To think abusive parents should bear the blame

[carolondon]

Children who have been in the media recently and have comitted horrific crimes against other children, (the Bulger case, The two boys in Doncaster are the two that spring to mind)have all come from horrific homes where they have witnessed and been subjected to violence on a daily basis and watched hardcore porn.

The behaviour they displayed has surely been learnt from the adults responsible for them. Does anyone agree with me when i think that not only should the children be sent away and rehabilitated, the parents should also serve an equal jail sentence for severe neglect.

[tethersend]

No, it was at me, threeBlondeBoys.

My opinion on how to punish abusive and neglectful parents?

A blanket policy will never work. People abuse for different reasons. They very rarely shy away from abusing children for fear of the penalty. Each case should be judged on its own merits.

My point is that I don't need to provide a water-tight alternative in order to have an opinion that forced sterilisation is wrong.

[ppeatfruit]

Well OPs Iam not a fascist or a racist that is an irrelavancy Chynadoll. I just get so upset by the terrifyingly awful families who get away for years and years with abusing their DCs.

I agree the children don't nec. go on to be abusers but there are bound to be more from those families who do carry on the tradition.

It is very odd that there are no reponsibilities enshrined in the human rights legislation. Which needs rewriting.

What about the rights of innocent children to have a caring family.

I so agree with alouiseg.

[Greensleeves]

"rather like the electric chair"

that has made me feel physically ill

Interestingly Alouise, I know lots and lots of survivors of horrendous abuse and neglect who has FAR more humanity and decency than you appear to possess

I wouldn't like to be one of your children

[Alouiseg]

Chynadoll. Abuse is abuse whatever culture you're from. This is the UK other cultures cannot break the law just because it doesn't suit their cultural background. FGM is illegal here, it can't be allowed just because it is acceptable in some cultures for example. Since when did a white, middle class man become he enemy?

Tethers. People abuse for different reasons!!! Yup, but it doesn't make it right or acceptable and next time i read yet another heart rending piece of news about another blighted child's life i will just think never mind they were probably abused for a reason.

[GypsyMoth]

so if we sterilise abusers...doesnt stop them being abusive does it,in fact i think it would make them worse

and what will happen if they are claiming/found to be mentally ill??? still sterilise?

[tethersend]

Alouise- what?

Err... you don't think there are reasons people abuse?

Do you know what a reason is?

It's just that you seem to be confusing 'reason' with 'excuse'.

[tethersend]

ROFL @ ppeat's critique of the Geneva convention

[GypsyMoth]

Alouise.....so what is abuse then??

[Alouiseg]

3bb it stops them having more of their own children.

What reason could anybody have to neglect or abuse a child????

[tethersend]

What?

Why do you think people abuse children, Alouise?

[GypsyMoth]

define neglect and abuse which would warrant sterilisation please?

[Alouiseg]

Tethers. Because they are selfish, negligent, hideous people with no compassion or empathy.

3bb. Inflicting pain, causing suffering.

[GypsyMoth]

it would need to be more specific than that. a slapped hand could be said to be inflicting pain. and so on...

an you not see how it wouldnt work?

are surgeons allowed to perform surgery without patients consent? what if someone died during a procedure which was against their wishes? what if they were innocent and had done nothing?

[tethersend]

Alouise. They are reasons.

They are not necessarily correct reasons, but they are reasons.

[Alouiseg]

I love a good row debate but i think i've come to the end of the three hander for tonight.

Moving swiftly over to diet/sleb twaddle/style

[ChynaDoll2006]

Alouiseg

I didn't say the white middle class man was the enemy. I implied the white middle class man does not know everything about every culture in this country.

And I am not talking about out-and-out beatings, but some things that look morally questionable to those in power may be perfectly acceptable and non-damaging to those from other cultures now in the UK. Many cultures think things we do with children and teach children in this country are morally warped.

[oldenglishspangles]

What value will prosecuting the parents add? A short time at her majesties pleasure (following the significant cost of a trial that will be hard to prosecute if they themselves have come from an abusive background and were failed by the state) and they would be out in a short time. That money could be better spent on the children and reeducation those parents that genuinely what to turn their lives around. The solution is to break the cycle. Education, education, education. Studies have shown early intervention with children from less than desirable background from an enrichment perspective, leads to less teen pregnancies and less antisocial behaviour. If you level the playing field for these children their outcomes will be better. Better schools, more stable home environments its not rocket science, but it does cost money.

[oldenglishspangles]

oh and the sterilising suggestion Hitler thought he was doing the german national a favour..

[jaquelinehyde]

My God the attitudes and opinions of others never cease to amaze me!

Maybe it's them that should be getting sterilised, because filling their child's mind with this type of bullshit has to be abuse surely?

Oh and yes and lets kick all the 'illegals' out, that's a great way to fund this brilliant plan. Mwhahahha mwhahahaha

Twats!

[GypsyMoth]

thats one of my points JH....abuse comes in all forms!

[mrswill]

In my work, Ive seen far too many abused and damaged children to believe in the 'right' to have children, or have much sympathy for the excuses abusive parents make.

Im probably cynical, but sometimes you can throw tons of resources and have a full understanding of the issues behind it, but people will still continue to abuse their children.

Personally, for some parents I would support forced contraception. I think it should be a valid option.

[tethersend]

You don't have to believe in the right to have children- it exists.

It's like saying 'I don't believe in cheese. Or Scotland.'

[mrswill]

I understand what your saying, I thought this thread discussed sterilisation, the implications being the 'right' to have children. FFIW I think the thread has a lot of valid opinions, mine is just a different one informed by my own experiences and job.

[tethersend]

I am being picky, mrswill I'm sorry.

You disagree with the right to have children, fair enough- I am just fed up with people thinking that human rights have to be earned and can be given up.

[Mscombobulated]

Where does the line get drawn? Had John venebles "gotten away" with what he did, he would no doubt gone on to do more - the reasons for his actions wouldn't have changed, whatever they are - but he would have garnered no sympathy as an adult and people would be more openly baying for blood.

I honestly truthfully don't know. Was Baby Ps tormentors abused? Mentally ill? didn't stop me being glad when i read about him being burnt in prison. That is something that makes me very uncomfortable, to take pleasure in another humans suffering.

Are people born evil? Does that mean that evil is a physical state? an illness? Do they learn evil? What IS evil? But if you are born with an illness you get treatment - what if evil is an illness?

Does what they did torture the bulgar killers? Do they feel regret? Now they are old enough and it is "real"? Or do they feel nothing? Whats worse?

Sterilisation? i agree in principal - but where do you draw the line? Drug addicts? those with mental illness? people with learning difficulties who might struggle? There is probably an argument for all of those.