To think abusive parents should bear the blame

[carolondon]

Children who have been in the media recently and have comitted horrific crimes against other children, (the Bulger case, The two boys in Doncaster are the two that spring to mind)have all come from horrific homes where they have witnessed and been subjected to violence on a daily basis and watched hardcore porn.

The behaviour they displayed has surely been learnt from the adults responsible for them. Does anyone agree with me when i think that not only should the children be sent away and rehabilitated, the parents should also serve an equal jail sentence for severe neglect.

[Alouiseg]

I resent the BNP/Nazi mudslinging that goes on whenever there is a discussion about negligent parents.

Some of us think that innocent children need more care and protection than they receive. Some of us also believe that there needs to be more than a hug and a cup of tea for the parents who commit atrocities against there own/other children.

If these heinous crimes were committed against adults there would be charges of Gbh, Abh, wounding with intent etc.

But for some peculiar reason children can be treated as a parent sees fit however appalling it is.

[ppeatfruit]

oledenenglish.. if you had read my post I did mention some of the other "non aryans' who the nazis tried to exterminate.

I still feel that the lives of young children are more important than the 'rights' of their abusive and or murdering parents.

[oldenglishspangles]

ppeatfruit - Hitler did not just kill jewish people he 'thoughfully' killed those who he considered unfit to be a part of his 'supreme' arian race. This included, the disabled, gay, the mentally ill and many other undesirables. Eugenics is wrong no matter how you package it. You may 'solve' one problem but I can assure you 10 more problems will crop up in its place.

[mrsruffallo]

I tink it's important to have all perspectives on this, not just the 'you must be BNP'brigade

[ppeatfruit]

Mrswill thank you for your contribution to this discussion, it is very valuable and reinforces my gut feeling.

it seems to me that there is so much confusion in our society about hopeless cases and giving rights to child abusers, murderers and peodeophiles.

There is no comparing a thoughtful policy to prevent the above people after being found guilty in court having more children and the gassing of a generation of jewish people, gipsies and gays by the terrible nazi regime.

[mrsruffallo]

MrsWill- I have actually heard the people who work in these kind of jobs express such a wish. I do think the job wears you down, and I think it's more letting off steam.
It does seem insurmountable sometimes, the amount of irresponsible parents who are happy to have children they really don't care about.

The social work cock ups have been huge, but in the end it is not them committing these crimes of cruelty/neglect but the parents/carers themselves letting it happen. It is impossible to control everything , especially with parents who willfully deceive the authorities

[Alouiseg]

I think that enough money goes into the system to fund "better lives" but it only trickles through to frontline services, I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of the ss and education budgets get lost in quangos and administrations. Removing layers of bureaucracy would allow the money to go where it's most needed.

[oldenglishspangles]

Mrswill - social services may have spent money but I wonder how wisely it is being spent given how blatant the cock ups are.

[CheerfulYank]

I do not agree with forced sterilization for anyone because, like many others on this thread, I think it's a very, very slippery slope and who would choose where to draw the line?

I do think, though, that those like Baby P's parents (I'm not familiar with the case, and from the sounds of it I don't want to be)should never be allowed to have another child. If they do create one, it should be removed from their care at birth.

I believe in the rehabilitation of human beings, the possibility for redemption, and all that. I protest against the death penalty here in the US every chance I get. But I do not believe that child abusers deserve another chance to be parents. There's just too much at stake.

[mrswill]

I apologise for being so cynical. Social work has seen many theories and approaches, and lots and lots of money (but not enough) is spent on interventions, but it still doesnt seem to be getting anywhere. My own personal/work experiences have made me wish that forced contraception was an option, when I see yet another baby being born knowing they will be abused and neglected. It may not be a moral or ethical, but I believe it is a undertandable opinion when you are faced with it on a day to day basis.
I am just trying to make you understand the reasoning behind why some of us may feel this way, and am not trying to sway anyones opinion, as everyones is valid, just giving a different viewpoint

[Mscombobulated]

Where does the line get drawn? Had John venebles "gotten away" with what he did, he would no doubt gone on to do more - the reasons for his actions wouldn't have changed, whatever they are - but he would have garnered no sympathy as an adult and people would be more openly baying for blood.

I honestly truthfully don't know. Was Baby Ps tormentors abused? Mentally ill? didn't stop me being glad when i read about him being burnt in prison. That is something that makes me very uncomfortable, to take pleasure in another humans suffering.

Are people born evil? Does that mean that evil is a physical state? an illness? Do they learn evil? What IS evil? But if you are born with an illness you get treatment - what if evil is an illness?

Does what they did torture the bulgar killers? Do they feel regret? Now they are old enough and it is "real"? Or do they feel nothing? Whats worse?

Sterilisation? i agree in principal - but where do you draw the line? Drug addicts? those with mental illness? people with learning difficulties who might struggle? There is probably an argument for all of those.

[tethersend]

I am being picky, mrswill I'm sorry.

You disagree with the right to have children, fair enough- I am just fed up with people thinking that human rights have to be earned and can be given up.

[mrswill]

I understand what your saying, I thought this thread discussed sterilisation, the implications being the 'right' to have children. FFIW I think the thread has a lot of valid opinions, mine is just a different one informed by my own experiences and job.

[tethersend]

You don't have to believe in the right to have children- it exists.

It's like saying 'I don't believe in cheese. Or Scotland.'

[mrswill]

In my work, Ive seen far too many abused and damaged children to believe in the 'right' to have children, or have much sympathy for the excuses abusive parents make.

Im probably cynical, but sometimes you can throw tons of resources and have a full understanding of the issues behind it, but people will still continue to abuse their children.

Personally, for some parents I would support forced contraception. I think it should be a valid option.

[GypsyMoth]

thats one of my points JH....abuse comes in all forms!

[jaquelinehyde]

My God the attitudes and opinions of others never cease to amaze me!

Maybe it's them that should be getting sterilised, because filling their child's mind with this type of bullshit has to be abuse surely?

Oh and yes and lets kick all the 'illegals' out, that's a great way to fund this brilliant plan. Mwhahahha mwhahahaha

Twats!

[oldenglishspangles]

oh and the sterilising suggestion Hitler thought he was doing the german national a favour..

[oldenglishspangles]

What value will prosecuting the parents add? A short time at her majesties pleasure (following the significant cost of a trial that will be hard to prosecute if they themselves have come from an abusive background and were failed by the state) and they would be out in a short time. That money could be better spent on the children and reeducation those parents that genuinely what to turn their lives around. The solution is to break the cycle. Education, education, education. Studies have shown early intervention with children from less than desirable background from an enrichment perspective, leads to less teen pregnancies and less antisocial behaviour. If you level the playing field for these children their outcomes will be better. Better schools, more stable home environments its not rocket science, but it does cost money.

[ChynaDoll2006]

Alouiseg

I didn't say the white middle class man was the enemy. I implied the white middle class man does not know everything about every culture in this country.

And I am not talking about out-and-out beatings, but some things that look morally questionable to those in power may be perfectly acceptable and non-damaging to those from other cultures now in the UK. Many cultures think things we do with children and teach children in this country are morally warped.

[Alouiseg]

I love a good row debate but i think i've come to the end of the three hander for tonight.

Moving swiftly over to diet/sleb twaddle/style

[tethersend]

Alouise. They are reasons.

They are not necessarily correct reasons, but they are reasons.

[GypsyMoth]

it would need to be more specific than that. a slapped hand could be said to be inflicting pain. and so on...

an you not see how it wouldnt work?

are surgeons allowed to perform surgery without patients consent? what if someone died during a procedure which was against their wishes? what if they were innocent and had done nothing?

[Alouiseg]

Tethers. Because they are selfish, negligent, hideous people with no compassion or empathy.

3bb. Inflicting pain, causing suffering.