To demand a harder hitting campaign to promote breastfeeding?

[WashwithCare]

I?m sometimes taken aback to hear mothers gave up bf-ing because it was sore, or involved feeding for hours at a time? What did they expect? What did they think newborns do? Didn?t they imagine that anything chewing on your nipple for 10 hours a day was going to nip a bit?

But then again, who can blame them? Breastfeeding for the minimum WHO recommendation of 2 years is practically unheard of. Nearly everyone will tell you it?s absolutely your decision, and fine to stop. The public info campaign is fluffy and vague about the benefits, and the baby on the follow-on formula milk box looks decidedly peachy. Lots of women are so mis-informed, they believe that formula is almost as good as breastmilk.

Is it time for something a little harder hitting? How about this for a tv ad; (scene 1) mum feeding her newborn a bottle telling her mate how hard bf-ing was. Caption: Breastfeeding Hurts. (scene 2) same mum, but now older, bald and sick, hugs toddler. Caption: So does breast cancer. FADE to caption: "Breastfeeding significantly Reduces your Life Time Risk of Breast Cancer". Followed by cheesy inspirational slogan.

FWIW my own issue with this thread and some of the posts is the assertion that only thick, uneducated, selfish or lazy mothers don't bf their children for 2 years, or that they simply didn't try hard enough. I'm assuming you've seen the posts I'm talking about?

Here's the scottish breastfeeding stats:
www.isdscotland.org/isd/5939.html

?There is a clear association between breastfeeding and deprivation. In 2008, 42.4% of mothers in the least deprived areas were exclusively breastfeeding at the 6-8 review, compared with 14.4% of mothers in the most deprived areas. This means mothers in the least deprived areas were nearly three times as likely to exclusively breastfeed at 6-8 weeks compared with mothers in the most deprived areas.

There's no point in being offended about people saying that poor women whith no education are less likely to breastfeed. Just be outraged that this is true.

Oh please, read it again.

That's how you're coming across WWC. Are you just misunderstood?

WWC, you are plain ignorant in your views!,nasty poisonous piece of shite, that needs to go down the toilet pan! you cited on this thread many many many times that BF does significantly reduce breast feeding also also SAID it was FACT! RUBBISH as I have proved! But yes you were proved wrong, and still you show this brassiest attitude! and lack of common sense! and just sheer idiotic in some of your posts!

In order for me to cut out all the foods for my son I would have to cut out ALL dairy products and SOYA, every single one of them, ALSO all FOODS containing lactose and also foods that contain CITRUS.
My diet would be veg and veg only, he is that sever in his allergies, He is also soya intolerance also (not as bad) and is atm on a soya milk, but its making him poorly, and I am currently fighting Drs to get his formula changed.

For me its not just cutting out lactose in my diet, its also dairy, soya and foods that contain citrus.

He cant even have a banana as he is lactose intolerance, he cant have bread, as he is lactose, all of which if I had eaten and did made his intensities bleed and he was admmited to hospital.

Here's a link on the citrus allergy, that the one that is the biggest problem, as this one nearly killed him, BY my breast milk!

Then add the lactose and CMP into the mix, as I said he has 2 major ones and will be going into hospital when he turns one to see if he can handle these food, which they dont think he will, but its always worth a try.

www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~vclarke/citric_foods.html

Again I didn't have the choice it was took away from me, as one little accident in taking a sip of coke or having a sandwich could make him very very ill!

His allergies and intolerances are sever. Living on a diet of just veg, does have a HUGH impact on my health, or are you so thick and ignorant you simply cannot see this.

Even if I could have the choice (which I didnt) it would severly impact on the everyday runing of my household, as dh is peanut allery, (so no nuts either) and who on earth wants to live of a diet of just veg.

your a shameful excuse of a breastfeeding supporter. your a IDIOT plain and fooking simple!

Ach.. why didn't I hide this thread when I had the chance?

WWC, from my perspective, the way in which you frame your points is overly personal and out of order. LMH has been clear that, from her perspective, she had no choice regarding how to feed her child.

As I posted earlier (neatly ignored), the notion of 'choice' is a moot point for overwhelmed, overwraught and exhausted mothers who are told by professionals, when faced with a poorly child, that their bfing is causing that illness. If you want to take issue with anything, take issue with the lack of support given to women by medical and other health professionals when a child is losing weight or otherwise unwell. From what I have heard from others, and experienced myself, formula is nearly always suggested in these instances.

You - and others like you - seem to me to be arguing that, when fragile and exhausted after birth and in the midst of negotiating the massive sea-change that is becoming a mother, every woman should have sufficient awareness of the minutiae of breastfeeding literature to be able to rise above their natural, inbuilt anxieties and question the professionals paid to care for them when they are presenting a case for formula. These mothers should, superhumanly, be able to rise above pain and fear and everything that goes with being told your tiny infant is not thriving or you will say they just 'couldn't be bothered' to breastfeed.

Do you know what anguish it causes when you are told that your breastmilk is not sustaining your child - for whatever reason? I'm guessing not. It's not as easy as 'just' giving up foods etc. I had spent 5 full days in bed with my baby, giving lots of skin to skin etc to 'establish' breastfeeding and felt it was going brilliantly.. to be told that he was losing weight during this time was an emotional wrench I can't fully describe.
If you haven't experienced the sense of failure and disappointment that brings, you have no business commenting on it or on the decisions a woman makes when faced with it.

LMH, just read your last post there and my heart goes out to you. I have seen people deal with peanut allergies alone and it requires immense planning and a lot of day to day courage. Please stop engaging with someone who clearly has no understanding of your very real, very difficult situation. There is no case to answer here but I doubt WWC can see beyond her own comments. I reported a previous post where she called you delusional but it seems to have had no impact.

'the notion of 'choice' is a moot point for overwhelmed, overwraught and exhausted mothers who are told by professionals, when faced with a poorly child, that their bfing is causing that illness.'

Very well put, I think, mrsbean

By Allidon Sun 17-Jan-10 20:26:37
How do you know what LMH's consultant told her? Perhaps she was told it would be impossible for her to continue bf? I don't have a problem with you saying that it is possible to continue bf in spite of allergies, I do think it is judgemental and unfair for you to tell LMH that you know more about her baby's condition than she does, or that she couldn't be bothered to make dietary changes. I think you would do right to apologise to LMH for your comments about her personal situation.

Allidon - I think you are being unreasonable. I was responding to a direct question from Mrs Happy. I quoted it in my response. Further, her answer to her question was contained in infor she gave in the question itself. Read her question again:

my son is not only COWS milk protein ALLERGY! but he is also lactose Intolerance and also citrus allergy, so please tell me how I can safely breast feed my child, and take care of my older child and for it not to impact on my own health by cutting out the basic and also needed foods in a healthy diet!

And the answer was, you can't do it without cutting out the foods he is allergic to, but that it is perfectly possible to be healthy and cut out these foods.

I mean, she asked me... she gave me the info to respond - what exactly is so cheeky about me doing exactly what she asked?

That's how you're coming across WWC. Are you just misunderstood?

Probably.

I don't know. You'd probably have to tell me more about why my concern for children in poorer households offends you so greatly.

Given what you keep telling us about your situation in the other thread maybe a little more time spent sorting your own life out and a little less trying to run other people's would be sensible.

Little Mrs

I am delighted that you now feel you have proved that breastfeeding does not reduce your risk of breastcancer. This is a huge achievement - perhaps you could capitalise on your discovery and spread the good word by offering an exclusive to the Sun or Daily Mail?

I appreciate that you didn't want to pursue a lactose and citrus free diet. Your baby, your choice - I think as long as Mums are well-informed... and given your recent research break-though on the cancer link, we can be in little doubt as to your considerable ability to process evidence.

Mrs Bean - you make sound points - the problem is, at some point you do need to break the circle and say women give up bf-ing too easily and that Health Professioanals are too willing to push formula. If we never say it for fear of upseeting someone who feels uncomforable about their bf-ing decisions, how do you create a culture of change?

No one here has come for bf-ing support - it is a debating board to discuss issues

By mrsbean78 Sun 17-Jan-10 20:50:16
WWC, from my perspective, the way in which you frame your points is overly personal and out of order.

Really?

LMH wrote you are a "nasty poisonous piece of shite, that needs to go down the toilet pan"

Allidon worte: "You nasty, judgemental, evil woman."

you "really are poisonous and quite frankly deserve every bit of misery dished at you "

I know, I know... these are (a) all totally legitimate responses and how normal people debate issues or (b) I drove them too it...

wwc, why don't you just go and sort out your own dysfunctional family

and stop judging others

and for those still posting on here...please stop

you will not dent this particular forcefield of denial and insufferable self-righteousness

it is just not worth it

Yet more blatant digs WWC, I dont read the wail or the shite, Id leave that up to you, as you very evidently here do cite rubbish from that disgusting mouth of yours, I give information as to HOW is it, not what I think it is.
Shame we cant say the same for you.

your a disgrace, and I am wondering who's the delusional one, as from what I can see I am a mother who put her children and families health 1st and foremost.

Again, I didn't have a CHOICE or are you too simple to see that, should I BF and make myself ill to reach your goals. I will do what I and the medical professional (who are experts in his illnesses and knows whats best for him) that some pleb on a website.

lmh, honestly, love, just walk away

your blood pressure will thank you x

You're dead right AF. I'm going and I'm taking my last post with me.

Thanks for the compliments. I am a risk manager in RL (and ex NHS quality manger with a public health background) so have spent much time thinking and reading the literature about why people make the choices they do. Which is why I know that it is complicated, and not something to weigh into with all sorts of ignorant suppositions. Plus (probably more pertinently) I have a highly intelligent and informed and yet still smoking husband, so I know that you cannot make people do anything they don't really want to.

I can't say that I did more than tolerate breastfeeding really. I knew it was the right thing to do. It was easy for me (my babies both latched on very easily from the start - no cleverness or determination needed on my part) and the children thrived, but I really didn't enjoy it and was glad to stop. I have friends that continued for a long time very happily and friends that struggled hugely and stopped quite quickly, and some that found it easy with one baby and not another. I don't think that martyring yourself is ever very helpful.

Yeah, smoking is a real bind nooka. I like to think I'm quite intelligent (no genius but I've got some half-decent qualifications) and yet I have smoked on and off (mostly on) for the past 16 years. It's an unbelievably strong addiction. And I say that as someone who has been addicted to other things in the past. Nicotine is the strongest one I've experienced.

I've given up with patches and gum and inhalators and reading books and going to groups blah blah blah.... But now I've stopped again without any of that and it feels completely different. I am genuinely enjoying the stopping process; no issues with cravings. I really think I have reached the point where I am finally ready to stop. I don't want to smoke any more. I hope your husband gets there too.

Like the others, I'm bowing out of this thread now too. I've said all I can/need to say on the subject. To everyone here: no doubt your children love you very much, whoever you are and whatever your parenting methods.

wubbly that sounds really grim. Poor you. I felt a little similar about having a c-section instead of my planned homebirth, but sometimes things just don't work out the way we think they might and it is not our fault. Bear in mind that for much of our parent's generation they didn't even think about breastfeeding, and I've yet to see them beating themselves up about it. In any case guilt such a self destructive emotion. I think you should try nd stop thinking about the past - your son is no doubt lovely and there are many many decisions which I am sure you have and will "get right", and that he will thank you for in the future.

AF you are of course totally right. And I don't see WWC applying a research basis to her decision to marry someone with a very active (if destructive) relationship going on already. There is plenty of research that says that is not conducive to long term happiness. In truth most of us use research quite selectively to reinforce decisions we probably would take anyway.

Wubbly - that sounds horrendous. I don't why you would feel I would be anything other than sympathetic to you through what sounds the most harrowing time?

let's draw a line under it, ladies

_

please ?

Nooka
No - I'm not aware of stating anywhere that marrying DH was an evidence based decision.

However, if you want to discuss my approach to step-children and marriage, why do you feel the need to do so here... I suppose that sort of eroneous remark is the PhD owners' equivalent to telling me "I'm an evil cow"

Sigh. I'm just pointing out that even you have made decisions that might not be the best. As we all do.

Nooka - I have never or implied that I always make decisions that "are the best". I think my main concern with your account (of free-thinking individuals weighing risks) is that it is predominantly poor people that end up making decisions are aren't "the best" about their own and their children's health.

Anyway - it was an interesting discussion. It was really meant to be about what would be a more effective way of promoting bf-ing through public campaigns, but such discussions always tend to get hijacked into being ff v bf.. Never mind - all good stuff, and food for thought.

Thanks for all the replies - 923! That's a lot!

Its never been a FF v BF, it been about giving out the CORRECT information! FACT! not scaremongering information. (which for ME you have, and also your ignorant views on the matter).

You keep going on about these poor people, I wonder if their individual lives were taking into consideration, maybe some would BF BUT due to be being poor and they HAD to go back to work, as they could not live of the MA, is any of this being took into their statistics, or is it yet just another BLACK and WHITE and NO in between?

"BUT due to be being poor and they HAD to go back to work"

Interestingly enough, in the UK the women who are least likely to breastfeed, are also those who are least likely ever to have worked, or to return to work, and the women who are most likely to breastfeed are also those most likely to go back to work.

"s any of this being took into their statistics"

The research generally 'controls' for factors such as age and educational background of parents, as well as income and social class.

"it been about giving out the CORRECT information! FACT! not scaremongering information"

I think the problem is that there will always be some controversy as to what constitutes'fact' when it comes to health research, and that's not just in relation to baby feeding. It's in the nature of medical research.

My personal feeling is that if research findings (such as those which relate to the impact of bf on reproductive cancers, and to SIDS) have been reviewed by panels of doctors, health researchers, midwives and paediatricians working for the major health bodies - such as the WHO, the NHS, UNICEF and the RCM, and they see fit to include it in their infant feeding information for parents, then I think it's fair enough to accept that they are concerns that deserve to be brought to our attention.

I don't think it's fair to label this information 'scaremongering'. It's up to the individual to make up their own minds as to whether they feel these things are significant to their own lives or not. We all have different comfort zones around 'risk taking' in relation to our children's lives and our own - it really is down to us to work out how important these issues are to us.

I understand perfectly well that as new research emerges, sometimes (often) our understanding of these issues change. But as a mother I can only make decisions on the best available evidence NOW.